Why Electric? Confused

[rickprice407]

I'm trying to get a handle on why using electric heat is superior to gas/propane. As an electrical engineer (Indusrial control systems) and having a world class chef for a wife, I have experience with both. NO cook that I have ever seen would choose an electric range over a gas stove. Why? The ability to control temperatures exactly and immediately. The reasons to use electric heating of vessels in industry can be varied. Exact time/temp control not overly critical, few if any variations once operating temp reached, explosive gasses in the area (safety concern with flames/sparks), simplicity (not having to bring in gas lines). That said, most of their chem labs still heated small batches with bunsen burners.

I am looking to expand beyond 5 gallon batches, automating my all grain process (probably with a little AB brick PLC) and essentially making my life easier on brewday. So I'd really like to hear from the guys who are actively doing the electric brewing why I would choose it over my propane banjo burners. I mean even the BrewMagic system is gas/propane.

Looking forward to hearing since I'm still in the analysis and design stages and can make changes before building.

Rick near Atlanta

 

[kh54s10]

Most people use propane. Propane + closed in space = carbon monoxide + death

 

[Yooper]

I posted this last night in a different thread:

Well, with electric I brew inside in my laundry room. The rest of my house isn't affected. It's cheaper than propane. I don't have to run hoses outside the freeze in the winter, or deal with water running for my chiller outside. I can run my HERMS and hold temperatures perfectly. I can ramp up the temps within one degree and never risk overshooting, because I don't have to turn a fire off and on. I think those are most of the advantages I can think of right now.

The thing is, a propane turkey fryer isn't like a nice professional gas cooktop. It's hard to control it to a precise heat. For example, I want my strike water to be 5.5 gallons at 169.5. That's super easy with electric controls and a PID, but not quite as easy with propane!

With electric, you can easily choose temperatures, recirculate the mash, and even boil.

With gas, you can also do those things. But not indoors unless you have natural gas plumbed in and a ventilation hood. Unless you have a natural gas system, you will need to make sure you refill or exchange your propane tanks.

If I lived in a warmer, more agreeable climate, I may have never made the switch. But today it is snowing, and I can still brew without going outside or worrying about my water freezing in the hose.

 

[runningweird]

I currently use propane, and that presents problems:

Tanks run out of propane
Tanks have issues in the winter
Fire= immediate fire hazard
carbon monoxide


Electricity: on demand
cheaper than propane
safer - in my mind

 

[Bobby_M]

Even if you brew in a semi-enclosed space like a garage with the doors wide open, gas fired systems will raise the ambient temp by up to 20F. In the summer, it's almost a no-brew deal breaker for me. In the winter, well 40F feels better than 20F, but there's also the freezing wind coming in through the half open door (for CO safety).

Electric puts 100% of the heat into the liquid and you can keep your doors completely shut.

 

[BrewersKaramazov]

But today it is snowing, and I can still brew without going outside or worrying about my water freezing in the hose.

Pick a random thread and learn something....I surely would have brewed this winter and been shocked to realize the hose was frozen when I went to hook up my chiller.

 

[Bru]

I concur with Bobby - the gas turns my garage into a sauna. Ive changedto electric but Ive moved the gas (controlled with a solenoid Brutus style) to my MLT (RIMS) - I'll fire the gas when I need to save time, mash out, decoction mash etc. BK also has both gas and 4000W element - gas helps get the boil going quicker then gets turned off.
Also, even with ventilation the carbon monoxide is present. And its heavier than air so while I might be OK my free-ranging 2 yr old is inhaling fumes.
Another advantage is I can start heating remotely so that when I arrive home I can get started straight away - not so easy/safe with gas.

 

[Bobby_M]

True, even with my doors open and the flames burning clean, I need to get fresh air to avoid a headache. I have a CO alarm in there with me but it must be just below the alarm threshold.

 

[shortyjacobs]

If you're a chef, cooking with gas is better for a couple reasons:

More control! Solid burners take a while to heat up and cool down, the pot/pan base, which on a good one is heavy gauge to give even heat distribution, takes a while to heat up and cool down. Gas burners turn on/off instantly, so you have tighter control, ASSUMING you are standing over it the whole time.

With brewing, there are differences. The element is submerged in the liquid, which means NO efficiency loss in heat transfer, and NO long lag times for a big element to heat up/cool off. In terms of cost and efficiency, electric wins!

More control! Gas turns on/off instantly, and gives you visual indicators of how hot it is!

With brewing, we want MUCH finer control. 152 vs 156 in a mash is a BIG difference. It's damn tough to manually control a flame to hit exact temps. With electric though, you just set your PID to a certain temp, set the alarm, walk away, and 15-20 minutes later the alarm goes off, and your strike water is at the EXACT temp you want. And it will hold there. Electric gives you "set and forget", gas gives you "hover over and obsess".

Plus, there's the inside vs. outside thing others talk about.

 

[rico567]

Pick a random thread and learn something....I surely would have brewed this winter and been shocked to realize the hose was frozen when I went to hook up my chiller.

This is one of the main reasons why I'd like to go electric- I can move indoors in winter. Problem with moving indoors, as I understand, is that you're boiling off a gallon or two of water pretty quickly, and this is not necessarily a good thing to be doing indoors. In the summer, I can stay out in the garage.....easy to put 240V service to either location.

 

[Yooper]

This is one of the main reasons why I'd like to go electric- I can move indoors in winter. Problem with moving indoors, as I understand, is that you're boiling off a gallon or two of water pretty quickly, and this is not necessarily a good thing to be doing indoors. In the summer, I can stay out in the garage.....easy to put 240V service to either location.

Yes, moisture is my biggest problem. That's why I decided against the basement, as I didn't have any good place to do ventilation except by the outside door. I set up now in my first floor laundry room, as it has a door to the outside, and I just prop the door open and blow a fan out the door to get rid of moisture in the summer. In the winter, it's not that big of a deal- our house can use the moisture and I just turn on the bathroom fan to avoid a steamy room.

 

[Homercidal]

Realize that you're not cooking with your brewing set up. You are usually either boiling or trying to hit an exact temperature. It's easier to do both with electric. Here's why:

Trying to boil - Crank the element all the way up, get to boiling ASAP. Reduce output to element using PWM+SSR is as easy as turning a knob. Trust me, most turkey fryer adjustment is somewhat finicky. I suppose if you are boiling on a nice professional gas stove, you could do it easy enough.

Controlling mash temps. I don't think most people just use a plain heating element to heat their mash. They are usually using a control of some sort. This is much easier to make for electric than gas. Set the temp and walk away. The controller senses the temp and will adjust the output of the current to get to temp and from there to maintain it.

It really goes hand-in-hand with a recirculation system, which produces a fairly continuous temperature plus the added benefit of a clearer wort; automatically.

Plus, it's cheaper and quieter than gas. All of the heat from the element goes into the water/wort, while with gas a substantial portion is lost.

I agree, gas is for cooking, but when it comes to brewing, that very fine control is not necessary, and the edge goes to the more expensive, but easily automated electric rig.

 

[hatfieldenator]

I've brewed both ways and I can testify that its is a luxury to have an electric system. Such easy, precise control of temps. No running to the store to fill up propane tanks. I can brew indoors no matter what the weather outside. And its much cheaper per brew day. You spend a bit more to get started initially depending on how fancy a system you build, but its money well spent IMO. For a chef, obviously a gas stove is far superior to electric ranges, but that's comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Spartan1979]

I'm seriously looking at going to electric. The main reason is to be able to brew in my basement where my equipment is stored and I have a nice SS sink. I must go up and down the stairs 40 times when I brew, hauling all that stuff out to the garage and then back down. It's going to make brewing so much more enjoyable.

 

[rickprice407]

Thanks for the great replies. Living near Atlanta, winter isn't usually too brutal although last year with over 30 days with highs at or below freezing was an exception. Generally waiting a few days anytime except late Jan - February gets a day when outside is OK. Yesterday was in the mid-70s - cold front last night and mid 50s today - outside isn't an issue. And since all our stoves are propane in the house, along with the grills and smoker (300 gal buried tank), propane is cheap and available.

However, I'm intrigued. May just be the engineer in me. Can anyone point me toward a link with some plans. I've got space in my box for another 220 circuit and could run an outlet this weekend.

Thanks again for the great info.

Rick near Atlanta

 

[shortyjacobs]

Thanks for the great replies. Living near Atlanta, winter isn't usually too brutal although last year with over 30 days with highs at or below freezing was an exception. Generally waiting a few days anytime except late Jan - February gets a day when outside is OK. Yesterday was in the mid-70s - cold front last night and mid 50s today - outside isn't an issue. And since all our stoves are propane in the house, along with the grills and smoker (300 gal buried tank), propane is cheap and available.

However, I'm intrigued. May just be the engineer in me. Can anyone point me toward a link with some plans. I've got space in my box for another 220 circuit and could run an outlet this weekend.

Thanks again for the great info.

Rick near Atlanta

This forum is fantastic for all the different member builds. One "gold standard", but FAR from the only method or system that can be used, is Kal's The Electric Brewery

 

[Hoppopotomus]

+1 on Kal's Electric Brewery.....that's what I'm building currently!

 

[kal]

My reasons for going electric were mostly because I wanted to do it indoors (it's too *@#$&@#& cold in Canada for most of the year).

Here's my short list of other reasons to brew with electricity instead of gas:

- Easier precise control of temperature
- Safer for indoor brewing (no poisonous gases, no emissions)
- Absolutely silent (the bigger gas burners required for brewing sound like jet engines!)
- Much more efficient use of energy (our 5500W heating elements produce ~20,000 BTUs of heat and will outperform an 80,000 BTU propane burner)
- No tanks to refill
- Cheaper to run (use $1-2 in electricity instead of approximately half a tank of propane per batch)

I don't know of one brewer who, after switching to electric, wished they were still using gas.

Kal

 

[Maxkling]

Thanks for the great replies. Living near Atlanta, winter isn't usually too brutal although last year with over 30 days with highs at or below freezing was an exception. Generally waiting a few days anytime except late Jan - February gets a day when outside is OK. Yesterday was in the mid-70s - cold front last night and mid 50s today - outside isn't an issue. And since all our stoves are propane in the house, along with the grills and smoker (300 gal buried tank), propane is cheap and available.

However, I'm intrigued. May just be the engineer in me. Can anyone point me toward a link with some plans. I've got space in my box for another 220 circuit and could run an outlet this weekend.

Thanks again for the great info.

Rick near Atlanta

I'm using a SLC5/03 your options are endless. What do you want out of your process?

Honestly the reason for me is money. I have access to old items from recontrol updates that are just scrapped. Propane is outrageously priced compared to electric.

 

[hrspowr]

I recently completed my all electric brew station, and although I did it for the "Coolness" factor (I'm a gadget freak, and love all the lights and digital controls! ) the biggest benefit I have come to appreciate is the noise.

I brew outside under a covered deck area on my farm. When using propane, the two hours of heating water and boiling the wort used to drive me crazy. Now, I flip a switch, set a temp and all I hear is my liquid quietly boiling away!

 

[BucksPA]

My reasons for going electric were mostly because I wanted to do it indoors (it's too *@#$&@#& cold in Canada for most of the year).

Dude, You guys zamboni the Rideau Canal every night in the winter!!!!!!!!

I live in Pennsylvania which endures a deep freeze every year, but you put a zamboni on a river and it will surely break through the ice. The SWMBO and I go up to ottawa multiple times a year....winterfest, etc.

 

[kal]

Dude, You guys zamboni the Rideau Canal every night in the winter!!!!!!!!

They lower the water level so that it freezes faster (there's only a foot or so of water IIRC).

That said, you won't catch me out there for more than a few hours... and who wants to brew in a parka and [ame=http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=touque&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=110l1030l0l1264l6l4l0l0l0l0l312l732l0.1.1.1l3l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.,cf.osb&biw=1168&bih=813&wrapid=tlif132158389907910&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi]touque[/ame]! (Linked for the Americans who don't know what one is...

Kal

 

[Yooper]

They lower the water level so that it freezes faster (there's only a foot or so of water IIRC).

That said, you won't catch me out there for more than a few hours... and who wants to brew in a parka and touque! (Linked for the Americans who don't know what one is...

Kal

Hey, when I'm camping I sleep with a touque. But I don't want to brew in one! No link needed, but thanks! Everybody I know has a touque.

Today, it got cold in my brewery with the door open. I think it got down to about 65. I almost had to put on a long-sleeved shirt! Outside, it was snowing.

And for anybody who cares, I'd have to drive SOUTH to go visit Kal!

 

[Bru]

I suggest put the sensor low down - at kid level - just in case your lighties are getting stoned without you knowing

True, even with my doors open and the flames burning clean, I need to get fresh air to avoid a headache. I have a CO alarm in there with me but it must be just below the alarm threshold.

 

[NoCornOrRice]

I brew using electric for a very simple reason: winter

 

[jma99]

I also use electric to brew indoors.
Mine is a very simple system that mimics my old propane system.

And I would have to go south to visit Yooper!

 

[Yooper]

I also use electric to brew indoors.
Mine is a very simple system that mimics my old propane system.

And I would have to go south to visit Yooper!

Yes you would! I bet it would be at least 30 miles south!

Electric isn't for everybody, but I don't know of anybody who went electric and then regretted it!

 

[OneHoppyGuy]

2 reasons not to (and I'm pro electric)

1. Can't be used where electricity is not available (ditto for those with pumps)
2. In some areas of the country electricity prices are extremely high

 

[BucksPA]

2 reasons not to (and I'm pro electric)

1. Can't be used where electricity is not available (ditto for those with pumps)
2. In some areas of the country electricity prices are extremely high

I use propane but my control panel is electric (asco valves, PID controllers, and pumps). The electric company shut power down after a storm. Believe it not an employee of the electric company was intrigued with my brewery sitting in the driveway. I expressed concern that the power was going to be shut off, where he kindly lent me a portable generator. I made it through my brewday because of him (gave him a 4 pack of homebrews). So if you run into a situation where the power is out, use a generator!!

 

[kal]

In some areas of the country electricity prices are extremely high

True, but is the electricity price higher than propane in the same place? That's really all that matters.

In most places in North America, the cost to brew with electricity is about 1/10th or 1/15th the cost of using propane.

Tht question is, is there any place where electricity actually costs *more* than propane?

See here:

Factors Affecting Electricity Prices - Energy Explained, Your Guide To Understanding Energy

This says that the average retail price of electricity in the United States in 2010 was 9.88 cents per kilowatt-hour (kWh).

The three States with the highest average price of electricity in 2010 were:

Hawaii (25.12¢ per kWh)
Connecticut (17.39¢ per kWh)
New York (16.31¢ per kWh)

So in worst case electricity costs are about 2.5 times the average rate. So instead of propane being 10-15 times the cost, it may be 2.5- 4 times the cost. That's assuming a constant propane cost around the country which is most likely not true. I bet that propane in Hawaii is also more expensive.

So let's see, how does propane vary per state?

See: Propane Prices | National Propane Pricing Information

Cheapest I can find are places like Iowa and Missouri at around $1.9-2/gallon. They are also some of the cheapest in electricity.

The most expensive places for electricity (ex: New York and Connecticut) are also some of the most expensive for propane at about $3.1/gallon which is about 50% higher than average, the same increase that these places pay for electricity. (I can't find anything for Hawaii).

So while this isn't an exhaustive analysis, it seems that if electricity prices go up for a region, so does propane, so the 1/10th or 1/15th would still hold true.

Anyone have any examples of places where it's cheaper to brew with propane than electricity and have proof?

Kal