Why don't my hops pop?

[cyanmonkey]

So, I made a 2 Hearted clone and it turned out really well, but it's almost like a tribute, or something.

I noticed on the original the hops are much more apparent than on my brew and I was wondering why, since most hoppy things I make doesn't come across the same in aroma that some commercial brews I buy.

Is it it due to not using enough hops during dry hopping? Or might it be that I'm using lower quality hops? Something else that I'm missing? I build my water up from distilled, if that helps.

 

[user 204491]

I found that all of my hoppy beers were pretty disappointing until I built a CO2 purging system and started using it every step of the way. Now I purge with CO2 when I take a gravity sample, dry hop, and transfer to the bottling bucket on bottling day.

I was blown away with the difference it made on the very first beer I used it on. It was just night and day different from the hoppy beers previously.

 

[cyanmonkey]

I found that all of my hoppy beers were pretty disappointing until I built a CO2 purging system and started using it every step of the way. Now I purge with CO2 when I take a gravity sample, dry hop, and transfer to the bottling bucket on bottling day.

I was blown away with the difference it made on the very first beer I used it on. It was just night and day different from the hoppy beers previously.

Really? So you think it's just oxidation and I just don't realize it because I don't know otherwise? Very interesting...

 

[bob1852]

Need more sulfate in your water.

 

[SC_Ryan]

I find mash pH to be especially important with hoppy beers

 

[cyanmonkey]

Sulfate, maybe. Mash pH was right at 5.2.

 

[SC_Ryan]

5.2 at room temp or mash temp? I'd lean toward oxidation over sulphate level. Sulphate has more to do with bitterness perception than hop flavor. At least for me.

 

[cyanmonkey]

5.2 at room temp or mash temp? I'd lean toward oxidation over sulphate level. Sulphate has more to do with bitterness perception than hop flavor. At least for me.

5.2 @ mash temp. I just added a bit of gypsum to the packaged brew and I'm not confident that it made a big difference...I'm leaning towards oxidation, too, actually. I don't have a way to purge, currently and don't have a reference to what oxidized hops would be like, so maybe this is it? I figured it would be more of a kind of flavor, as opposed to a lack of presence, but I guess that makes sense.

 

[cyanmonkey]

Repeat.

 

[bob1852]

5.2 at room temp or mash temp? I'd lean toward oxidation over sulphate level. Sulphate has more to do with bitterness perception than hop flavor. At least for me.

Oops. Missed the part about aroma and not bitterness.



How many dry hops are you using? I've gone up to 1.5oz/gal for dry hopping and it's made a big difference.

 

[cyanmonkey]

I used maybe 2.5 oz for a 5 gallon batch. I mean, hops are definitely there, just not as crisp and clean/apparent as what I had hoped for. Should I have gone bigger?

 

[Singletrack]

I found that all of my hoppy beers were pretty disappointing until I built a CO2 purging system...

I'll bite. What is your CO2 purging system? Do you have a build thread or something? Thanks.

 

[SeeMont]

I'll dito Single track. Interested in your purging system.

 

[mrdail87]

I know this thread is already full of different ideas, but the yeast strain and fermentation temp can be factor too. Depending on the strain, different temps can bring out different characteristics.

If you're otherwise happy with your brew, start with one thing at a time. Quickest way to find out if it's your water profile would be to brew with bottled drinking water (not distilled), and see if you notice any difference. If it's more hoppy, you can safely say it's your water profile.

 

[user 204491]

I'll bite. What is your CO2 purging system? Do you have a build thread or something? Thanks.

I actually found it on here, just followed the parts list in the latest video linked by the OP in this thread:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=520394

(Also, the sample syringe in that thread is a killer tool in my arsenal as well)

Not saying this is definitely the problem in this thread, but it made an immediate and very noticeable difference in the very first beer I used it on. My hoppy beers went from being "meh, that's okay but not really what I was expecting" to "oh wow that's good" on the very first sip.

My wife noticed it as well, so I don't think it was all in my head.

Also, water chemistry has come up a bit in this thread, and while I'm a total noob in those regards, I would say that if you are trying to brew really stellar hoppy beers, at a minimum you should have your brewing water tested and plugged into whatever brewing software you use. Then select the "light and hoppy" (or equivalent) target water profile and add the necessary salts/minerals to get you in the ball park.

Proper water profile and reduced oxygen content definitely won't hurt your hoppy beer.

 

[Calichusetts]

Basically its all been said...water chemistry, ph of the mash and you need to minimize oxygen after fermentation.

 

[SpeedYellow]

Edit: (delete mash pH stuff, pardon the brain fart)

p.s. you should post the recipe and water mineral content of the batch in question, so we can give better feedback. For example, if you already have a SO4 content of 200 ppm, then I doubt the answer is "needs more SO4".

 

[m00ps]

Ive found the two biggest thigns that helped my hop forward beers was kegging and hopstanding

Hopstanding I started with first and the first time I tossed in like 8oz after flameout, I knew i unlocked some sort of secret to getting great hop character at a homebrewing level. The beer tasted amazing fresh, but quickly lost their luster after a few months in the bottle

cut to kegging. This really helped protect my precious hop character from oxygen eating it all up. Plus it gave me another opportunity to dry hop in the keg

 

[JJ900]

m00ps - is that 8oz at flameout for a 5gal batch?

 

[max384]

I actually found it on here, just followed the parts list in the latest video linked by the OP in this thread:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=520394

(Also, the sample syringe in that thread is a killer tool in my arsenal as well)

Not saying this is definitely the problem in this thread, but it made an immediate and very noticeable difference in the very first beer I used it on. My hoppy beers went from being "meh, that's okay but not really what I was expecting" to "oh wow that's good" on the very first sip.

My wife noticed it as well, so I don't think it was all in my head.

Also, water chemistry has come up a bit in this thread, and while I'm a total noob in those regards, I would say that if you are trying to brew really stellar hoppy beers, at a minimum you should have your brewing water tested and plugged into whatever brewing software you use. Then select the "light and hoppy" (or equivalent) target water profile and add the necessary salts/minerals to get you in the ball park.

Proper water profile and reduced oxygen content definitely won't hurt your hoppy beer.

What you linked isn't a CO2 purging system. What you linked minimizes oxygen exposure to the beer. However, air (and thus oxygen) is still introduced into the system. Whatever volume of liquid you remove, an equal amount of air will occupy the space taken by the fluid removed. I'm not saying this isn't a great idea, because it is, but it is not a CO2 purging system.

I purge all of my fermenters with CO2 whenever I move them, take samples, etc. What I do is shut off gas going to my extra kegerator CO2 line with an in-line shutoff valve. Then I remove the ball lock quick release from the extra CO2 line. Then I sanitize the line and put it into the headspace of fermenter and turn it on. I leave it running for long enough that I'm confident I've pushed out any air that made its way into the fermenter.

 

[stpug]

I used maybe 2.5 oz for a 5 gallon batch.

That's you're problem. You should be AT LEAST double that, and more likely even more than double (triple or more).

Edit: Disregard. I thought it was 2.5 oz for the entire batch. Didn't realize this was just the dry hop addition. Carry on

 

[m00ps]

m00ps - is that 8oz at flameout for a 5gal batch?

Yeah, 4 at flameout, then 4 more 20min or so into the hopstand. Ive found its pretty hard to overdue it with hops past the boil. Last IPA I did had 15oz total over the recipe

 

[cyanmonkey]

Two major issues here. First is that you shouldn't measure pH at mash temps because it degrades your electrode, you read a higher pH because pH actually increases with temp, and because convention requires room-temp measurements.

Second, a reading of 5.2 at mash temp would suggest you'd be reading like 4.9-5.0 at room temp even with a temperature-compensated probe, although nobody seems to know exactly how much that difference is (probably because nobody is supposed to be doing it anyway).

So your mash pH of 4.9 to 5.0 is very low, and I would assume a negative impact on the beer. The only time I got a pH reading that low the beer turned out poorly, although there could have been other reasons of course.

In the future, target something more like 5.4 at room temp.

If you don't believe me on any of these points, please check out the stickies on the Brew Science forum. It's all there.

p.s. you should post the recipe and water mineral content of the batch in question, so we can give better feedback. For example, if you already have a SO4 content of 200 ppm, then I doubt the answer is "needs more SO4".

pH decreases with higher temperature. Room temperature would have been 5.4-5.5.

 

[SpeedYellow]

pH decreases with higher temperature. Room temperature would have been 5.4-5.5.

Gaah! Sorry, that was a complete brain fart. I'll edit my post.

 

[SpeedYellow]

I used maybe 2.5 oz for a 5 gallon batch. ..

Quite reasonable to me. 3 oz of 12% alpha at flameout and 2-3 oz dry hop is a solid amount in my experience. Most definitely qualifies as a hoppy IPA; in fact this is my preferred amount. Obviously opinions differ, based on how hoppy people want it.

 

[stpug]

Quite reasonable to me. 3 oz of 12% alpha at flameout and 2-3 oz dry hop is a solid amount in my experience. Most definitely qualifies as a hoppy IPA; in fact this is my preferred amount. Obviously opinions differ, based on how hoppy people want it.

I just looked back and realized this was in regards to dry hops only, not the entire batch. 2.5 oz of dry hops should be good, especially for this beer (two hearted clone)

 

[SpeedYellow]

Yeah, like I said, it would be helpful (and less confusing) if we had the full recipe.

 

[cyanmonkey]

Without further ado:

Boil Size: 7.00 gal
Post Boil Volume: 6.25 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 6.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 6.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.070 SG
Estimated Color: 6.6 SRM
Estimated IBU: 58.5 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 74.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 74.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
12 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 1 80.0 %
2 lbs Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (3.0 SRM) Grain 2 13.3 %
8.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 3 3.3 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 4 3.3 %
0.75 oz Centennial [10.30 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 22.3 IBUs
0.50 oz Centennial [10.30 %] - Boil 45.0 min Hop 6 13.7 IBUs
0.50 oz Centennial [10.30 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 7 11.4 IBUs
0.75 oz Centennial [10.30 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 8 11.1 IBUs
0.50 oz Centennial [10.30 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 9 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg SafAle English Ale (DCL/Fermentis #S-04) Yeast 10 -
2.50 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Dry Hop 0.0 Days Hop 11 0.0 IBUs

 

[JKaranka]

Have you tried adding some gypsum to a bottle and trying that?

 

[deepbluegroove]

in order to know if you have the right water profile, I would recommend a water report. Then you can add all the salts to get it right.
I had in the past added gypsum, but did not know what I put in until I got a water report, did bru'n water. Then with gram scale weighed out my salts and added to the water. Now I get the right taste from the same amount of hops. If you want big hop flavor add more. But then again there is a limit to how many hops before it just doesn't add anything more.