Why doesn't everyone just BIAB?

[Yooper]

Hah. Distort reality? Sorry if that doesn't meet your expectations. I'm just speaking from personal experience. I've had 8 hour brew days using my mash tun / turkey fryer combo. That means setting up, gathering materials, cooling, pitching, oxygenation, washing, drying and storing. These things add up, especially if you are doing a recipe with an extended mash, longer boil, etc.

That's fine, that you're speaking from personal experience. But I think that I'd quit brewing if I had 8 hour brew days!

Depending on if I'm fly sparging or batch sparging, my brewdays vary from 4-4.5 hours total, including clean up.

Remember that we're talking about the system and comparing them. Sure, if I was poorly organized I could take longer. But I'd take longer than most at BIAB also. A well designed three vessel system compared to a well designed BIAB system should be what we're talking about.

A mash takes just as long, so saying "an extended mash or boil" taking longer in a three vessel system just isn't accurate, as I'd assume that you would do the same mash or boil with the BIAB.

The differences between BIAB and "traditional" methods may involve sparging differently (or not at all) and the lautering method. That really should be the only differences. Mashing, recirculating (if done), boiling, etc should all be the same.

 

[malkore]

I try to brew beer on a small scale in a similar way to big breweries.

Big breweries do not BiaB.

Plus I have my setup how I like it so I'm not interested in ditching gear I spent good money on just to try the bag method.

As long as the end result is good beer, its all good in my book.

 

[chalkdust41485]

Yooper,

You have a good point that I may not have initially gotten across: The time difference between BIAB and a 3 vessel system is probably not that much. It is dependent on how well prepared you are come brew day and other variables.

I think that people may have different definitions of the length of "brew day". I set up/move some of my equipment to the back door the night before. I could record every minute that I do something towards a brew, but, in reality, it really doesn't matter that much:
On average: 20 minute heat up + 1 hour mash + 1 hour boil + 20 min cool down + 20 minute transfer to fermentor/yeast pitching/storage = 3 hours.

Since 3 hours is the "core" of the brew day and is pretty much concrete, the other amount of time is prep and cleaning and is probably the biggest variance between brewers. Some are better at prep and cleanup than others.

H-ost,

As far as batch size is concerned: I'd have to agree to a point. Larger (10G and up) BIAB brews do present other challenges that you dont see at smaller volumes. Lifting the amount of grain being the biggest one that I see. However, I'd have to say that it's not impossible. Seven from the link that I posted has a very doable setup where he uses a "seafood boil"/steamer basket to assist in the lifting of the grain bag and draining. I think it is a very good idea and seems to work just fine for him. In his instructions, he doesn't sparge, but I could see that with a sparge and a final top up at the end with water that one could brew a 10G batch that way.

I would seriously think about it first before going down that rabbit hole. Just saying that it's possible. But I can see how it may be more and more difficult with the larger volumes.

 

[chalkdust41485]

I try to brew beer on a small scale in a similar way to big breweries.

Big breweries do not BiaB.

I don't think that we have to follow big breweries methods just because thats how they do it. Its just a different take on it really, just a different way to extract the sugars from the grain.

Plus I have my setup how I like it so I'm not interested in ditching gear I spent good money on just to try the bag method.

If I had all of the other brew equipment, I wouldn't want to ditch it either. I definitely wouldn't ask someone else too either.

As long as the end result is good beer, its all good in my book.

To that, I cheers!

 

[Yooper]

Yooper,

You have a good point that I may not have initially gotten across: The time difference between BIAB and a 3 vessel system is probably not that much. It is dependent on how well prepared you are come brew day and other variables.

I think that people may have different definitions of the length of "brew day". I set up/move some of my equipment to the back door the night before. I could record every minute that I do something towards a brew, but, in reality, it really doesn't matter that much:
On average: 20 minute heat up + 1 hour mash + 1 hour boil + 20 min cool down + 20 minute transfer to fermentor/yeast pitching/storage = 3 hours.

Since 3 hours is the "core" of the brew day and is pretty much concrete, the other amount of time is prep and cleaning and is probably the biggest variance between brewers. Some are better at prep and cleanup than others.

H-ost,

As far as batch size is concerned: I'd have to agree to a point. Larger (10G and up) BIAB brews do present other challenges that you dont see at smaller volumes. Lifting the amount of grain being the biggest one that I see. However, I'd have to say that it's not impossible. Seven from the link that I posted has a very doable setup where he uses a "seafood boil"/steamer basket to assist in the lifting of the grain bag and draining. I think it is a very good idea and seems to work just fine for him. In his instructions, he doesn't sparge, but I could see that with a sparge and a final top up at the end with water that one could brew a 10G batch that way.

I would seriously think about it first before going down that rabbit hole. Just saying that it's possible. But I can see how it may be more and more difficult with the larger volumes.

I guess that might bring up an advantage to the stand-alone three tier, maybe. My system is set up and ready to go. It has the same size footprint (pretty big, but as small as it can be) all the time. There is no set up and take down, and it's even set up for CIP.

My brewday is about the same length of time as yours, except I either batch sparge or fly sparge. Batch sparging adds maybe 10 minutes, but fly sparging may add an hour. It does take a few minutes to go from sparge temps to boiling, but I start the boil kettle when the first runnings go in, so it's about boiling by the time I finish sparging if batch sparging, and certainly if fly sparging it's in a full boil.

The bigger grain bills are where I see an advantage to my traditional system, simply just to have an HLT and sparging for the larger amount of grain. For a 5 gallon batch, BIAB would be just fine (again, assuming I could lift the grainbag out!).

 

[arg]

All good points, and with that considered I only have one last thing to put into this conversation.

I do a full-volume BIAB. What does that do to the pH? I know that going out of the usual water to grist ratio should have an effect on the pH and thus tannin extraction, among other things. If I brew a beer with a typical 1.3 ratio and another with the BIAB full-volume method and they are perceivably the same after fermentation, where does that leave us?

At what point does the water to grist ratio become an essential factor in getting the mash just right? If on a low OG, 5 gallon batch the differences aren't noticable, that doesn't necessarily mean they aren't there.

Is it just a factor of scale that allows us not to worry so much about that issue?

Edit: I'm thinking about what was said in this thread, particularly: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/mash-ph-full-volume-no-sparge-mash-146961/

So, doubling the amount of water would (in this simplified and theoretical condition) lead to an increase in mash pH, from 5.2 to 5.5. In other words, doubling the amount of water leads to only a shift of about 0.3 pH. Now, combine that with the effects of the buffering capacity of "real" water (not to mention the use of buffers like Five Star's pH5.2) and the actual effect seems, at least to me, to be essentially negligible for the home brewer.
...
3 qts / lb is not anywhere near too thin a mash for a no-sparge brewing process.

 

[spearko520]

sometimes i use biab for smaller batches or partial mashes- anything over like 10 lbs of grain dripping in a bag freaks me out. that's how you get ants.

 

[chalkdust41485]

All good points, and with that considered I only have one last thing to put into this conversation.

I do a full-volume BIAB. What does that do to the pH? I know that going out of the usual water to grist ratio should have an effect on the pH and thus tannin extraction, among other things. If I brew a beer with a typical 1.3 ratio and another with the BIAB full-volume method and they are perceivably the same after fermentation, where does that leave us?

At what point does the water to grist ratio become an essential factor in getting the mash just right? If on a low OG, 5 gallon batch the differences aren't noticable, that doesn't necessarily mean they aren't there.

Is it just a factor of scale that allows us not to worry so much about that issue?

Edit: I'm thinking about what was said in this thread, particularly: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/mash-ph-full-volume-no-sparge-mash-146961/

good point there. I was actually thinking of the same exact thing. I'll have to check out that link. I was thinking about using some ph test strips on my next brew.

 

[tasteslikechicken]

Big breweries do not BiaB

Coming back into brewing into brewing after a decade lapse I have adopted the attitude that I care about as much what big brewers do while making beer as I do about what Hostess does while making Wonder bread.

BIAB is a fantastic simplification to me. If you are a higher volume homebrewer then I could see the attraction of a larger setup.

On average: 20 minute heat up + 1 hour mash + 1 hour boil + 20 min cool down + 20 minute transfer to fermentor/yeast pitching/storage = 3 hours.

Or, BIAB + no-chill + ferment in BK: 20 minute heat up + 1 hour mash + 1 hour boil

And I'm not convinced that a full 60min boil is needed for no-chill.

But it's all good. Brew the way that works for you.

 

[kh54s10]

I like BIAB if the weather sucks since I usually brew in my garage. I have to go outside to get there with some of the equipment.

I find BIAB to be a bit of a PITA. Heavy hot wet bag to lift out and drain or squeeze without dropping back in or dribbling all over the stove.

Boil overs in the garage are not much of a concern. On my last brew day the foam was just starting so I decided to go get my Fermcap in case of a foam up. By the time I got back (less than 2 minutes) it had foamed over!

Got out the hose and washed the garage out.

 

[bikesnbeers]

I am in the late stages of putting my 3 vessel system together. I have experience with BIAB and AG, but mostly I've been an extract brewer. Here are some of the reasons that I decided to go 3 v:

1) Flexibility - as stated before, batch sizes and recipes are move varied with 3v
2) Knowledge base/Recipes - more information in general for 3v
3) Handling - bag is hot, heavy, sticky
4) Durability - i know that people are getting a ton of use out of those bags, but still...
5) I like to design and build stuff - not saying that you cant be creative with BIAB systems, but there are more opportunities with 3 v. (is that an argument for 4+v?
6) I try to limit use of synthetic polymers as much as possible. Don't ask me about my silicone tubing.

Response to the OP points

clarity - I've seen some crystal clear beers with BIAB
extra trub - Basic Brewing Radio did a podcast on trub in the fermenter. The gist: trub in the fermenter is not a bad thing, and some preferred the flavor of the finished beer.
tradition - only in the last couple 100 years
cost & storage - BIAB wins hands down, but I have seen some pretty costly BIAB systems
time - if time is an issue, why not extract brew? I've made plenty of good beers w/extract.

In my opinion, BIAB is not a 1 vessel system. I'm not sure if 1 vessel can actually exist because of the mash. I'm not convinced that cleaning out the bag is less work than cleaning out a MT. I think we all agree that dealing with that bag is more of a hassle than a MT. A buddy of mine uses a separate vessel for dunk sparge. There's a 3 vessel BIAB system.

A system is like a recipe. You can customize it to your own taste.

 

[cyclonite]

Great taste!

Less filling!

;-)

 

[Bobby_M]

I'll never BIAB in the traditional sense of dropping a nylon bag into the boil kettle. If I ever do it, it's going to be a different take on the speidelwhatever using a mash basket rather than a bag which will be lifted with a power winch. The ultimate hurdle is to let go of efficiency expectations.

I do think winching up all the grain and flipping the basket over into a wheeled garbage can does sound better than scooping all the grain out and taking my false bottom apart.

In summary, I'm not fully on either side of this debate at the moment. If I can make 6-12 gallon batches of up to 1.100 wort, holding a solid mash temp, effectively separating the wort from the spent grist, and make cleanup easier, right... that's the system for me.

 

[andysim]

Sometimes BIAB, sometimes three vessel.

 

[Bradinator]

I only BIAB right now. When I made the switch from extract to all grain last summer it seemed the most logical root to go; I had all the equipment I needed sans a nylon bag.

I don't think clean up is bad, I just put the sack into several grocery bags, turn it upside down to empty the grain and toss the tied bags into the neighbors yard.

Holding mash temp isn't too tough either. I wrap the kettle in towels and ducting insulation. It can hold a steady temperature for up to 2 hours in my experience.

The major draw back I face on a regular basis is big beers. 10lbs of grain puts a lot of strain on that nylon sack when I left it soaking wet from the kettle. If I want to make a huge gravity beer with my current setup I need to go partial mash.

 

[adixon3]

I think the main reason most people don't use the BIAB method is because you have to take in to consideration the amount of grains in your grain bag that takes away from the water in the pot which effects your efficiency. Plus I think it just another name for partial mash

 

[ne0t0ky0]

Pretty hard to recirculate a BIAB system...

I was just doing this in my last brew. As long as your bag is off the bottom, like in a basket. I drain out the diptube and out the ball valve into my pump, and run a hose back to the top. Worked out just fine. You can even direct fire during the recirc.

 

[ne0t0ky0]

I think the main reason most people don't use the BIAB method is because you have to take in to consideration the amount of grains in your grain bag that takes away from the water in the pot which effects your efficiency. Plus I think it just another name for partial mash

Grain absorption is accounted for on any all grain method. It's not any.different if you mash in at 2 quarts per lb than 1.25. You can sparge your grain bag if you want. Think of the bag as a different manifold/false bottom that you can lift out and drain.

It's certainly not a partial mash since BIAB, like any all grain method, attempts to obtain all of its gravity points via mashing grains. Partial mashing would require some liquid or dry malt extract to get your total gravity.

 

[ne0t0ky0]

The major draw back I face on a regular basis is big beers. 10lbs of grain puts a lot of strain on that nylon sack when I left it soaking wet from the kettle. If I want to make a huge gravity beer with my current setup I need to go partial mash.

I've done grain bills as big as 22#. I have a double layered bag which helps. What I struggle with is getting the wet bag out of my keggle opening. Switching to a straight side

 

[brewbobaggins]

Love BIAB.

I definitely see pros/cons to both sides, esp with the biggest con of BIAB being that anything much above 10 gal (ish) can get pretty heavy/dangerous filled with 150°+ water.

For me, I love brewing 2.5 gal batches. It's cheaper, lends itself to more creativity, and any batches that don't come out just right, it's a lot easier to just fix the issue and rebrew.

I am tired of the good old boys looking down on it though, esp w/ comments like, "It's a great way to get into AG brewing." From all of the research I've done and experience I've had with the many different types of systems, BIAB is just as good as anything else for anything (yes, ANYTHING) w/in a 5 gal batch size.

 

[usfmikeb]

I think the main reason most people don't use the BIAB method is because you have to take in to consideration the amount of grains in your grain bag that takes away from the water in the pot which effects your efficiency. Plus I think it just another name for partial mash

Somebody already rebuked your ridiculous comment on grain water absorption, and now I'll comment on your partial mash claim. What does the word partial mean? It means you only do a piece of something. So a partial mash means that you only mash a portion of the fermentables that will be used, and the rest comes from extract. BIAB is a full mash method, all fermentables come from mashing.

 

[suprchunk]

Somebody already rebuked your ridiculous comment on grain water absorption, and now I'll comment on your partial mash claim. What does the word partial mean? It means you only do a piece of something. So a partial mash means that you only mash a portion of the fermentables that will be used, and the rest comes from extract. BIAB is a full mash method, all fermentables come from mashing.

Partial is also a misnomer. You are mashing the entire amount of grains that need mashing, just a smaller amount of them. So, in essence, it is a mini-mash. I never understood the whole 'partial' name. That would mean you were only mashing a portion of the mashable grains. But I digress...

I've only BIABed once for a small batch. It is nice when making small batches. Otherwise I use the equipment I've had for years. Not to mention that I often brew double batches, or back to back, and it would not work FOR ME to use BIAB for that.

 

[chalkdust41485]

Partial is also a misnomer. You are mashing the entire amount of grains that need mashing, just a smaller amount of them. So, in essence, it is a mini-mash. I never understood the whole 'partial' name. That would mean you were only mashing a portion of the mashable grains. But I digress...

I've only BIABed once for a small batch. It is nice when making small batches. Otherwise I use the equipment I've had for years. Not to mention that I often brew double batches, or back to back, and it would not work FOR ME to use BIAB for that.

IMO, you are not mashing a different amount of grain with BIAB. You use the same amount. The recipes for 5 gallon batches are valid whether you use a cooler/3 vessel system, a BIAB, or any other method for that matter.

I believe that the definition of a mini-mash is to increase the amount of grain used in an extract-only recipe while still including a few pounds of extract. Using BIAB doesn't automatically make it a mini-mash.

But you do have a valid point that BIAB isn't the best option for double batches or back to back batches.

 

[studmonk3y]

Just to give a different perspective...
From my understanding BIAB was conceived here in Australia after home brewers first became aware of the Braumeister. They wanted a cheaper alternative of mashing in a similar fashion. A lot of the older brewers I've met here still prefer the traditional 3v system.
But for me BIAB was born out of necessity. When I was still living in the US, buying a 48 quart cooler and the bits needed for a ball valve and stainless steel braid was cheap. Also large pots and turkey fryers are dirt cheap in the US. But here, an equivalent sized cooler would sell for $200+ and similar propane burner costs $170. As a poor grad student, I can't afford a 3 vessel system here.
But now after I've seen how cheap and easy it is to make award winning beer with BIAB and no-chill, I don't know if I'll ever go back to a traditional system. One day when I do have a larger budget, I think I'd rather spend my money on other things (conicals, walk in cool room, etc.) rather than the method in which I make barley sugar-water.

And for the curious, no-chill was implemented because of the droughts and subsequent water restrictions we get here.

 

[Bobby_M]

I think the main reason most people don't use the BIAB method is because you have to take in to consideration the amount of grains in your grain bag that takes away from the water in the pot which effects your efficiency. Plus I think it just another name for partial mash

Efficiency in a no-sparge system (regardless of the use of a bag) is generally lower but it's not that much lower than a batch sparge system. It just has to be accounted for and accepted. In a true "bag" brew, the squeezing action of just lifting the bag actually drains more wort out than if it were in a static tun over a false bottom.

In my daydreaming about building a system like this, I'd have a heavy pressure plate that would be placed on the mash as I hoist the basket up.


The partial mash thing is just false. Partial mash means that your total fermentables only comes "partially" from a grain mash. This is no-sparge all grain brewing.

 

[Prymal]

In a true "bag" brew, the squeezing action of just lifting the bag actually drains more wort out than if it were in a static tun over a false bottom.

In my daydreaming about building a system like this, I'd have a heavy pressure plate that would be placed on the mash as I hoist the basket up.

Bobby this is completely accurate. I have had to adjust Beer Smith to account for the squeezing action in order to hit my pre-boil volume mark. I found I ended up with almost a gallon extra wort after squeezing the bag using the default value. My Grain Absorption rate is currently set to 0.0150 in Beer Smith. Significatly lower then the default 0.5xx.

I have also started trying to come up with a solution to more easily press the grains. Currently a use a 4.5 gallon pot with steamer tray and a pot lid to squeeze the bag.

 

[spearko520]

In my daydreaming about building a system like this, I'd have a heavy pressure plate that would be placed on the mash as I hoist the basket up.

i would have two giant logs swing together at the same time- just like the ewoks did to that walker in return of the jedi. messy- maybe- but super rad.

 

[cadarnell]

Ive seen recirculation of the wort mentioned in this thread several times .... is that done to somehow make better wort? Is it to increase efficiency? ... sorry for the ignorant question ... I'm still pretty new and I really don't know.

 

[H-ost]

Ive seen recirculation of the wort mentioned in this thread several times .... is that done to somehow make better wort? Is it to increase efficiency? ... sorry for the ignorant question ... I'm still pretty new and I really don't know.

Whirlpooling helps to cool, separate the solids left from the hops and hotbreak, and aerate(?).

The main reason out of those 3 is to separate the solids from the rest of your beer so your beer runs as clear as possible into your fermentor.

 

[Rdom]

All good points, and with that considered I only have one last thing to put into this conversation.

I do a full-volume BIAB. What does that do to the pH? I know that going out of the usual water to grist ratio should have an effect on the pH and thus tannin extraction, among other things. If I brew a beer with a typical 1.3 ratio and another with the BIAB full-volume method and they are perceivably the same after fermentation, where does that leave us?

At what point does the water to grist ratio become an essential factor in getting the mash just right? If on a low OG, 5 gallon batch the differences aren't noticable, that doesn't necessarily mean they aren't there.

Is it just a factor of scale that allows us not to worry so much about that issue?

Edit: I'm thinking about what was said in this thread, particularly: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/mash-ph-full-volume-no-sparge-mash-146961/

I've also wondered about the effects of a thinner mash on pH and final product. Anyone have any thoughts or experience with this?