Why doesn’t everyone BIAB?

[Aristoi]

I started brewing 15 years ago when batch sparging was all the rage. It was the BIAB of the time. It was the quick and easy (and cheapest) entry into all grain brewing. Seriously how cheap and easy could it get, all you needed was a $20 cooler and a $5 SS braided plumbing hose. I recall similar conversations about fly vs batch and why doesn't everyone batch sparge, fly was a waste of time etc..

What it comes down to is people start brewing have a method of entry. If they stick with brewing they optimize/refine their system to personal tastes. Some tinker and go more complex, some look to simplify, it comes down to what was said about personal preferences and motivations to change, where they want to brew, challenges with their current system and so on. The opportunity to change comes with equipment changes. For me i changed when my old cooler mash tun needed to be replaced. I was at a cross roads, do i go fancy new insulated SS mash tun, SS kettle/false bottom, or switch method all together. I chose to do all of the above because of scale.

5 gallon - i went all in one electric so i can brew in the basement in the winter and to simplify. Where i am at in life with kids, i dont have much time to brew, or tinker these days. I have 4 brews with this setup and am sold on the simplicity. I dont find it that much faster, but agree less cleanup, equipment storage etc.. This is the method i will likely be brewing 80% of the time.

2.5 gallon - i recently bought a 3 gallon fermonster, 2.5 gallon kegs for this scale and split 5 gallon experimental batches. I also bought a bag to do 2.5 gallon BIAB batches on my stove top. This scale is for my experimental batches i am not sure i want to commit and have to suck down 5 gallons of a beer i may not like, or small batches to serve as yeast starters for my yeast bank or larger batches.

10-15 gallon - I do this scale for my proven recipes everyone likes that is always on tap. Maybe 2-4 times a year depending on how much i am experimenting and how much variety i want on tap. I kept my old equipment and added a new SS kettle with false bottom. Plan to stay batch sparging at this scale.

We could not be more fortunate to have so many different ways to make good beer and at different scales. This is what works for me, some people might think i am crazy, some people might think its genius, i really dont care what people think about the method i chose, it is what works for me. I enjoy brewing, drinking, and sharing good beer! Pick what works for you that meets your needs and RDWHAHB!

 

[Gravelscratcher]

I just did my 1st BIAB last weekend, & the Whirfloc tablet & hot/cold break dropped everything to the bottom of the kettle, just like all my other brews.
I saw no difference in the end product.
Wort looked the same to me.

 

[grampamark]

I can't believe that word of this thread hasn’t made it over the wall, to where the LODOs camp, yet.

If they knew there was a pissing match going on, which didn't involve them, this thread would never end.

 

[HTH1975]

With my brewing, clear beer is the intended result. Clear wort is not needed to get clear beer and indeed the two are not related.

You’re right, you can get clear beer from wort that is not clear. The aim (certainly in the breweries I’ve worked at) is to ensure you have the clearest wort possible at each stage. This makes it easier to achieve clear beer.

 

[LittleRiver]

...You don't have to prove everyones opinion is wrong....

You've misunderstood my intentions. Several misconceptions about BIAB have been posted, I've just tried to clear up some of that confusion. I don't think I'm "right", and others are wrong.

Misunderstandings are just part of the landscape for an online discussion forum. If we were all sitting around face to face we could all understand each others intentions a lot better.

Your not making better beer than non biab brewers just because you spent less money on equipment and have 5 more minutes to spare because you don't have to clean a mash tun. Out of curiosity why didnt you choose a 3v setup?. In your opinion does biab make better wort than a traditional setup? why do you think that pros building new brewhouses arent choosing biab? cheers

As I stated earlier, when I decided to go all grain I looked at all the options and the elegant simplicity of BIAB appealed to me. The decision wasn't about space, I brew in my 4800sqft shop building. It wasn't about money, I could have bought any system.

Some folks are really into complicated brewing rigs, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. For some of them it's like they have an automation hobby that also produces beer. I get it. I understand the desire. But I design & build things for a living, so I don't need to scratch that itch in my brewing.

I have no desire to downgrade from my single vessel BIAB rig to something more complicated.

 

[Gravelscratcher]

My BIAB wort, just before moving it to the Primary.

 

[applescrap]

I can't believe that word of this thread hasn’t made it over the wall, to where the LODOs camp, yet.

If they knew there was a pissing match going on, which didn't involve them, this thread would never end.

Haha, lol, this is the first stone thrown over the wall.

 

[grampamark]

Haha, lol, this is the first stone thrown over the wall.

I have no bone to pick with the LODOs. It just seems as if every lengthy discussion about process here eventually turns into “LODO is bullsiht/LODO is the beer of champions".

 

[maisch]

Misunderstandings are just part of the landscape for an online discussion forum. If we were all sitting around face to face we could all understand each others intentions a lot better.

I don't know that in person debate and/or communication is much better. Most of the time I dare say it's not. If it weren't for the artificial and mostly hypocritical practice of "the law" most communication would devolve to physical violence due mostly to the nature of man and of insults and taking offense to that which is said.

Why doesn't everyone BIAB? For the same reason everyone doesn't do, say, believe, think, have what everyone else does. Because each person/situation is unique. It's not a technical issue, it comes down to DNA. Not sure what all the fuss is about.

 

[Todd_Sails]

What I’ve seen in this (and other threads) is that BIAB guys simplify the difference with 3-vessel systems as either separating the wort from the grain, or the grain from the wort. The problem with that oversimplification is that the two processes do not give the same results going into the boil kettle. I am able to get clear wort going into the boil kettle with a 3-vessel system. With BIAB, the wort is cloudy.

At each stage in the brewing process, the aim is to get clear wort. I like the challenge of doing this, it’s part of what makes the hobby interesting. The skill of it. BIAB does not involve that skill level imo. Do both processes produce good beer? Yes, but the hobby is more than just making beer, for me in any case.

Just a small tangent chime in here- Happy New Years
And, what about the 'no boil'- already mentioned here a few pages back?

 

[Gravelscratcher]

Just a small tangent chime in here- Happy New Years
And, what about the 'no boil'- already mentioned here a few pages back?

I'm all about "no boil" at some point. I just like to try new things...keeps it interesting.
Happy New Year y'all.

 

[gunhaus]

SO - First off thank you all for a truly interesting and entertaining read!

Pardon me if i am a little slow on the upchuck, I am pretty new to brewing having only begun my journey in the mid 80's - But what i take away from this tome is that it is a free country, and you can choose WHATEVER system pleases you - BUT if you choose one different from me then you are completely screwed up and totally wrong headed? That about right?

In an effort to bolster the individual positions on the topic at hand there seems to be some serious rationalization going on. The BIAB crowd appears to be stating that their system is so fast, easy and clean that you can actually be finished brewing in inverse time, and that it is so clean that it not only requires zero cleaning effort, it actually will clean and scrub the rest of the house for you while you boil the wort! It is modern, effective, and only a Neanderthal would have more than one hot water pot in the household.

The anti-BIAB cadre seems to decry the process as lacking tradition, efficiency, and panache - PLUS, it is fraught with dangers and threats, requires major engineering alterations to your homestead, and is so heavy and unwieldy that to lift a bag sans industrial strength hoisting equipment risks, hernia, torn tendons, dislocations, and perhaps internal hemorrhage.

I am afraid my experience offers little to the discussion - I still mash in a cooler. I don't have a HLT, I have two 20 quart pots that I heat on the stove for mash water and sparge. I don't fly sparge, I batch sparge - Always have, because that is the way the guy who taught me did it, and in the blissful pre-internet days we had no idea we were wrong minded heathens. We just knew we got beer out of the deal. I boil outside on the porch in my big SS pot. I dump my grains outside for the critters - they love them, and then wash out my cooler while i wait for the wort to boil. I know from reading this it is much faster to dump grain from a bag than a cooler, and that rinsing a sticky bag off is infinitely faster than rinsing out a cooler - But I have a spare five or ten minutes waiting on the wort boil anyway and I would get bored any how so it works out. Once the wort goes in the fermenter I have to wash out my boil pot. I assume it works that way for most BIAB guys (My son does BIAB and he still has to wash the bag and pot - But maybe he does it wrong?) I don't wash the two little pots that I heated water in - They only had hot water in them, and around here that is what we use to clean things anyway.

It seems that one of the BIAB keys is speed, and that some guys have it down to the point where they literally spend ZERO time at brewing. I would hate that because this is my hobby, and a form of entertainment, and I would have to find something else to do for fun if my brewing took zero time. I am concerned for my son though - When he and i brewed the 26th, we both had to heat about the same amount of total water, for very similar size grain bills. Both had to soak for and hourish or so. Both had to be brought to a boil and hops dumped in and all that stuff. Both had to be cooled down, and the pots needed scrubbing. In the end we were done around the same time!! What in heavens name is he doing wrong . . . .

Anyway, thanks for the read!

 

[HTH1975]

Just a small tangent chime in here- Happy New Years
And, what about the 'no boil'- already mentioned here a few pages back?

No boil is another ball game altogether. I’ve done a no-boil brew and it was nice. I’d like to do another at some stage and see if I can get it clear using brausol. I crash cooled the last one I did and it was still very murky (obviously no hot break or kettle finings).

 

[Blazinlow86]

You can have reservations about cloudy wort if you want to but in the end it doesn't matter for beer clarity or quality. I recently picked up a 2nd place best of show for a Marzen that was brilliantly clear after only 3 weeks in the cold. If cloudy wort at the beginning of the boil was detrimental, I wouldn't settle for it.

Everyone can have there opinions and obviously your opinion can't really be incorrect. There's a reason 99% of the brewing world removes the wort from the grain and not the other way around. I can tell you that if I make the same beer using my biab setup vs my 3v the biab beer us definitely inferior imho. As others stated it's always much hazier than the 3v. Now I'll definitely admit that bang for the buck there's no comparison. My biab setup cost less than 100$ and my 3v cost my at least 3500$. It's definitely more complicated but to me personally if it makes my beer 2% better it was worth it. I doubt your marzen got a blue ribbon because of your biab setup and can almost guarantee that if you used a traditional setup you'd have ended up with a better finished product. If biab made a better end product it wouldn't just be for "homebrew" . Cheers

 

[Gravelscratcher]

I read this little thread on No Boil...I wouldn’t mind giving this a try, w/ a SMaSH recipe or something simple.
https://www.experimentalbrew.com/content/no-boil-experiment

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

I read this small little thread on No Boil...I wouldn’t mind giving this a try, w/ a SMaSH recipe or something.
https://www.experimentalbrew.com/content/no-boil-experiment

Join the discussion. Or better yet try the No-Boil Hefe v4 recipe...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/index.php?threads/660329/

 

[Gravelscratcher]

Sub’d.

Join the discussion. Or better yet try the No-Boil Hefe v4 recipe...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/index.php?threads/660329/

 

[Blazinlow86]

You've misunderstood my intentions. Several misconceptions about BIAB have been posted, I've just tried to clear up some of that confusion. I don't think I'm "right", and others are wrong.

Misunderstandings are just part of the landscape for an online discussion forum. If we were all sitting around face to face we could all understand each others intentions a lot better.



As I stated earlier, when I decided to go all grain I looked at all the options and the elegant simplicity of BIAB appealed to me. The decision wasn't about space, I brew in my 4800sqft shop building. It wasn't about money, I could have bought any system.

Some folks are really into complicated brewing rigs, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. For some of them it's like they have an automation hobby that also produces beer. I get it. I understand the desire. But I design & build things for a living, so I don't need to scratch that itch in my brewing.

I have no desire to downgrade from my single vessel BIAB rig to something more complicated.

We will have to agree to disagree. Myself and 99% of people brewing beer around the world will continue to brew using the inferior industry standard. Maybe one day the rest of us will wake up and see how much better biab is throw away all the silly complicated stuff and get back to brewing the often touted beer the cave men made. After all were just making wort and the yeast do the heavy lifting anyway.

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

We will have to agree to disagree. Myself and 99% of people brewing beer around the world will continue to brew using the inferior industry standard. Maybe one day the rest of us will wake up and see how much better biab is throw away all the silly complicated stuff and get back to brewing the often touted beer the cave men made. After all were just making wort and the yeast do the heavy lifting anyway.

I'm going to have to agree to disagree. I don't want what our cave men ancestors brewed. Our pallet has been slowly evolving to better and better quality beer. Yes it's true many can't detect diacetyl or Phenols but those that can, and it's growing, seek cleaner more defined beers. Otherwise why HB?? I love trying to improve my process/technique and recipes to experience better and better beers..to me anyway. This is why I went back to my old AG ways. Mash Tun/sparge..etc.

 

[Gravelscratcher]

There’s room for all of us here.
I think both techniques work fine.
I haven’t tasted my BIAB results yet (brewed a Kolsch), but it’ll be as good of a test for BIAB as anything
A Kolsch should be clean/crisp/clear, and I suspect it will be, judging by the way it looked, and the sample wort tasting I did.

 

[Blazinlow86]

I'm going to have to agree to disagree. I don't want what our cave men ancestors brewed. Our pallet has been slowly evolving to better and better quality beer. Yes it's true many can't detect diacetyl or Phenols but those that can, and it's growing, seek cleaner more defined beers. Otherwise why HB?? I love trying to improve my process/technique and recipes to experience better and better beers..to me anyway. This is why I went back to my old AG ways. Mash Tun/sparge..etc.

To clarify I was beings sarcastic with that cavemen part and agree completely. I find there's 2 types of homebrewers. Ones that start a post like this asking why everyone doesn't choose the simplest and cheapest form of all grain because " were just making wort" or "caveman made beer". They think that because they get beer in the end with the least amount of effort there doing it best. They will often also use bruosify tests as further proof that making award winning beer requires no skill at all. the other type are the ones that only care about the end product. Nothing before that. They don't care what it cost or how long it takes. If it makes a better end product there doing it. Even if it only make a 1-2% difference and takes all day it's worth it to them. They generally don't rdwhanhb or whatever the saying is lol

 

[Gravelscratcher]

Looks like pro’s sometimes use BIAB too.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/145-gallon-biab-yes-145-gallon.483965/

 

[Blazinlow86]

Looks like pro’s sometimes use BIAB too.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/145-gallon-biab-yes-145-gallon.483965/

The tides are turning.... maybe they read this thread. At this rate I imagine all pro should be transitioned over to biab by the year 4000. Cheers

 

[Gravelscratcher]

Alrighty then.

 

[Blazinlow86]

I created a new thread asking why we *did* choose the biab method. Maybe all us biab user's can switch over there and let the people that don't biab have there chance to answer the question without being challenged everytime. Cheers

 

[t2000kw]

NO. You either forget secondary or you use a carboy (5 gallon) for that as with the extra surface area and volume of air above the beer you have a very much increased chance of an infected beer. With the carboy you want to fill it until the beer is starting up the neck to limit how much space is left so that the outgassing CO2 can fill it quickly..

RM-MN: I tend to agree with using a carboy over a plastic secondary fermenter. However, while there's the reduction of surface area exposed to the air in a carboy, some equipment kits include a second bucket for a secondary fermenter instead of glass, likely to keep the price down. That said, many people starting out use the plastic bucket as a secondary fermenter with great results.

If someone would use one of these as a secondary, though, I would recommend transferring the wort a bit early so that it releases CO2 as it's transferred and then quickly put the lid and airlock on the bucket. And, I wouldn't recommend keeping it in the bucket for an extended period of time like I might do in a glass carboy.

Transferring a bit early won't hurt anything, and as long as it's not too early it shouldn't lead to cloudy beer. There will be more sediment at the bottom at bottling or kegging time, though.

I personally use a carboy for secondary fermentation. And I've made some great beers with just a single fermenter.

Donald

 

[Blazinlow86]

Now we're really getting off topic lol

 

[NewJersey]

The tides are turning.... maybe they read this thread. At this rate I imagine all pro should be transitioned over to biab by the year 4000. Cheers

why are you so obtuse?
It's been stated many times that we (biab people) are talking about 5-10 gallon batches of beer. you've brought up commercial breweries SO many times. look, nobody is denying that biab might not be that great for a 7bbl brewhouse, but that doesn't weaken the biab argument or bolster yours.

 

[Blazinlow86]

Why are you so obtuse? I don't brew 5-10 gallons batches. Get it yet? So when I explain why I don't do biab for my big batches I don't need a 5-10 gallon biaber explaining I'm incorrect. Not that hard to understand is it? Your point might make sense if the original question was why did biab user's that make 5-10 gallons of beer choose biab. Because the question at hand is specifically why people that do **not** biab don't I'm not sure how the typical biab user's batch size is relevant to the specific title of this thread? the point is theres a reason you dont typically see biab setups larger than 5-10 gallons. thats the whole point. get it yet?? the thread isnt about 5-10 gallons biab users

 

[Gravelscratcher]

I think I’m done w/ this thread.

 

[t2000kw]

I created a new thread asking why we *did* choose the biab method. Maybe all us biab user's can switch over there and let the people that don't biab have there chance to answer the question without being challenged everytime. Cheers

Blazinlow86: No one should be challenging you on your brewing method. I haven't tried BIAB but I might sometime just to see what it's like. It seems to me it's like no sparge except for removing the grains from the wort than the wort from the grains.

One other idea that seems to have originated in Australia also is cooling your wort in a cube (plastic container) over night instead of using a wort chiller. That complicates things a bit on the recipe side because hop utilization goes up a bit as the wort sits at a hot temperature longer, but you can either live with the finished product being a bit more bitter or cut back on the hops.

Just because some method is different than what most people in an area use doesn't make it bad or good--it's just different.

Donald

 

[NewJersey]

Why are you so obtuse? I don't brew 5-10 gallons batches. Get it yet? So when I explain why I don't do biab for my big batches I don't need a 5-10 gallon biaber explaining I'm incorrect. Not that hard to understand is it? Your point might make sense if the original question was why did biab user's that make 5-10 gallons of beer choose biab. Because the question at hand is specifically why people that do **not** biab don't I'm not sure how the typical biab user's batch size is relevant to the specific title of this thread? the point is theres a reason you dont typically see biab setups larger than 5-10 gallons. thats the whole point. get it yet?? the thread isnt about 5-10 gallons biab users

Do you own a commercial brewery? name/location?

 

[Blazinlow86]

Do you own a commercial brewery? name/location?

I do not own a commercial brewery. I brew small batches at home using biab and also larger batches at home on a 3v

 

[Blazinlow86]

Blazinlow86: No one should be challenging you on your brewing method. I haven't tried BIAB but I might sometime just to see what it's like. It seems to me it's like no sparge except for removing the grains from the wort than the wort from the grains.

One other idea that seems to have originated in Australia also is cooling your wort in a cube (plastic container) over night instead of using a wort chiller. That complicates things a bit on the recipe side because hop utilization goes up a bit as the wort sits at a hot temperature longer, but you can either live with the finished product being a bit more bitter or cut back on the hops.

Just because some method is different than what most people in an area use doesn't make it bad or good--it's just different.

Donald

Biab is a great method if it works with your process/ layout. If I was building a new smaller main system it would be biab. Matter of fact I have a brand new Bayou classic 10g kettle with the basket and spigot I plan to convert to a ebiab setup at some point to allow me to do some in-between batch sizes. Cheers

 

[t2000kw]

I might give it a try myself sometime. Right now I've gone back to extract with specialty grain brewing due to time considerations.

 

[Blazinlow86]

Definitely try it before buying a bunch more equipment. All you need is a bag and your all grain brewing. Cheers

 

[Bobby_M]

Everyone can have there opinions and obviously your opinion can't really be incorrect. There's a reason 99% of the brewing world removes the wort from the grain and not the other way around. I can tell you that if I make the same beer using my biab setup vs my 3v the biab beer us definitely inferior imho. As others stated it's always much hazier than the 3v. Now I'll definitely admit that bang for the buck there's no comparison. My biab setup cost less than 100$ and my 3v cost my at least 3500$. It's definitely more complicated but to me personally if it makes my beer 2% better it was worth it. I doubt your marzen got a blue ribbon because of your biab setup and can almost guarantee that if you used a traditional setup you'd have ended up with a better finished product. If biab made a better end product it wouldn't just be for "homebrew" . Cheers

It seems like you're suggesting that I don't know any better and I'm just settling for BIAB because it's easier or cheaper (both of which are true) but not at the expense of anything else.

If 3v or 2v or standing on my head the whole time made my beer 2% better, I'd do it too. Listen, I have access to a wide array of brewing gear at wholesale cost and it's all a write off. I have a 3V electric HERMS system on display in the store 6 ft away from where my BIAB rig is sitting and I've brewed on it. I've brewed on almost every configuration of systems you can imagine.

I didn't argue that the reason my Marzen was second best in the whole competition BECAUSE it was brewed BIAB. It won in spite of it (since you thing it's inferior). I only sent three beers into that comp and all of them came out blue ribbons by the way, in case you think it was a fluke.

I don't think 99% of the world is brewing 3 vessel anymore but in any case, that's an appeal to popularity fallacy anyway. I actually agree with you that once you get above 10 gallon batches, BIAB starts losing its luster and I wouldn't use the process myself for anything over 10.

 

[kevink]

I brew on a 3 vessel HERMS system and am considering converting my BK to a BIAB vessel for simplicity, space savings, and a quicker brew day. The only thing that seems to be a negative for me is the grain particles in the wort and the fine crush. In theory, can't those two things add astringency? I get that people are brewing great beer on their BIAB systems and citing awards and what-not, but that really doesn't mean anything unless you brewed the same exact beer on a 3 vessel system and noted no difference in flavor. Just because you're brewing great beer on a BIAB system doesn't mean that it wouldn't be better coming out of a 3 vessel system. It may be the same, I don't know. Has anyone actually done a test like this?

 

[kevink]

I actually agree with you that once you get above 10 gallon batches, BIAB starts losing its luster and I wouldn't use the process myself for anything over 10.

Why is that? I have a 3 vessel HERMS system and my preboil volume is 18.5 gallons and I get 13.6 gallons in the fermenter. Would BIAB not work for me and why not?

 

[Aristoi]

I brew on a 3 vessel HERMS system and am considering converting my BK to a BIAB vessel for simplicity, space savings, and a quicker brew day. The only thing that seems to be a negative for me is the grain particles in the wort and the fine crush. In theory, can't those two things add astringency? I get that people are brewing great beer on their BIAB systems and citing awards and what-not, but that really doesn't mean anything unless you brewed the same exact beer on a 3 vessel system and noted no difference in flavor. Just because you're brewing great beer on a BIAB system doesn't mean that it wouldn't be better coming out of a 3 vessel system. It may be the same, I don't know. Has anyone actually done a test like this?

I had the same concern being a long time 3V cooler batch sparger. I like to see clear wort into kettle and this put me at ease. It was part of my normal process to vorlauf and return to top when batch sparging.

Part 1: (surprised to see better head retention on non vorlauf beer)
http://brulosophy.com/2016/02/22/th...oes-it-make-a-difference-exbeeriment-results/

Part 2: extreme testing the theory it does not matter by boiling some grains.
http://brulosophy.com/2016/03/28/the-vorlauf-effect-pt-2-testing-the-extreme-exbeeriment-results/