Why do I miss the %#*&ing OG every freakin' time?

[PetVet]

So, I started brewing all-grain almost a year ago. I never really worried about efficiency, pH, OG target, etc until recently. For the last few batches of beer (about 5), I have added pH adjuster, phosphoric acid, adjusted my grain bill up to accomodate a crappy efficiency of 60%, sparge for 90 minutes, upped my mash water volume to 1.25 qts/gal and use 1/2 gal water for sparging to offset a tremendous boil off and for the crap left at the bottom of my boil pot and what's absorbed by the grain. The last beer I made (yesterday) had 12.63lbs of grain and I used a total of 10 gal of water for mashing and sparging. The projected OG on Beersmith was 1.051 for a 5.5 gal batch ('cause I figure I lose 1/2 gal when I transfer to the secondary). After mashing with 4 gal water and sparging with 6 gal water, my pre-boil gravity was 1.010. I thought I had too much water so I decided to boil longer but, by the 60 min mark, I had around 6 gal wort. I filled the primary and it was dead-on 5.5 gal of wort and the OG ended up at 1.042. Is my conversion just that freakin bad or what am I doing wrong??????????? I taste the wort and it is super sweet, the very first gravity taken out of the mash tun was 1.087, and when I taste the grain after the mash it is not sweet in the least. What is happenning?????

 

[Suthrncomfrt1884]

What kind of sparging are you doing? At 90 minutes for a sparge, I'm assuming you're fly sparging. I'd be worried about how constant your temps were. Are you at 170 the whole time? I'd suggest moving to batch sparging to see if it works for you. It's much simpler, and on my system it actually adds about 5% to my efficiency.

Another HUGE thing is your crush. Are you crushing at the LHBS? Whenever I crushed at the LHBS, I would only get around 65% efficiency because the mill was so crappy. I think with all the people coming in and adjusting it to their specific needs, it's never the same.

I started buying pre-crushed until I could afford to buy my own mill. It costs a little more for pre-crushed, but I got a consistant 73-76% efficiency.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Hate to ask a stupid question, but how are you taking your sample for the OG?
Are you sure you have the entire batch mixed well enough to get a consistent sample? The last wort out of the MT (and potentially on top of the fermenter) is going to be a lower gravity. I know you know this, just stating the obvious.

 

[rockytoptim]

So, I started brewing all-grain almost a year ago. I never really worried about efficiency, pH, OG target, etc until recently. For the last few batches of beer (about 5), I have added pH adjuster, phosphoric acid, adjusted my grain bill up to accomodate a crappy efficiency of 60%, sparge for 90 minutes, upped my mash water volume to 1.25 qts/gal and use 1/2 gal water for sparging to offset a tremendous boil off and for the crap left at the bottom of my boil pot and what's absorbed by the grain. The last beer I made (yesterday) had 12.63lbs of grain and I used a total of 10 gal of water for mashing and sparging. The projected OG on Beersmith was 1.051 for a 5.5 gal batch ('cause I figure I lose 1/2 gal when I transfer to the secondary). After mashing with 4 gal water and sparging with 6 gal water, my pre-boil gravity was 1.010. I thought I had too much water so I decided to boil longer but, by the 60 min mark, I had around 6 gal wort. I filled the primary and it was dead-on 5.5 gal of wort and the OG ended up at 1.042. Is my conversion just that freakin bad or what am I doing wrong??????????? I taste the wort and it is super sweet, the very first gravity taken out of the mash tun was 1.087, and when I taste the grain after the mash it is not sweet in the least. What is happenning?????

Your readings sound off. Plus you didn't list your pre-boil volume. I can't see how you had pre boil gravity of 1.010 and had post boil gravity of 1.042.

If you do the math

pre-boil gravity units * volume = post boil gravity units * volume
10 * (pre boil volume) = 42 * 6 = 252
solving for pre boil volume
252 / 10 = 25.2 gal

according to the math you would have to boil 25.2 gals of 1.010 wort down to 6 gals to get 1.042.

That being said you still didn't get you target OG. If your doing a fly sparge maybe try batch sparging since its easier. I don't do a fly sparge but I hear you only pick up a couple of efficiency points and its a lot more senstive to equipment setup.

 

[Mateo]

I had some poor efficiency until I started doing this:

1. Batch sparge
2. Each bactch shut off the flow and stir the grain bed, trying not to mix up the bottom of the bed.

Now this might not be recommended by everyone, but I went from pathetic 60% up to 85% every single brew after that.

I had started to compensate with extra grain and was up to 12 lbs, and had to back off as it came in at a whopping 1.071. I now use 11 lbs and am in the 1.06x range for a 6 gallon batch.

m.

 

[KayaBrew]

Try mashing really thin. I go with 1.5-1.75 gallons per pound. Stir the hell out of it when mashing in. I do a single batch sparge, stir the hell out of it, let it rest for 10 minutes, vorlauf, and drain. I've been hitting 75-80% on every brew!

I buy all of my grains exclusively from Brewmaster's Warehouse. They crush them for me.

 

[Randar]

Honestly, with the sounds of your set-up, I think you need to figure out why your efficiency sucks before worrying about OG.

- It sounds like your measuring equipment might be off (temp is a possible point of failure resulting in crappy efficiency) so calibrate your thermometers and SG measuring device(s).

- Do a little investigation to see what kind of crush you are getting. Are you doing a conditioned malt crush with a fine setting on a mill? Awful LHBS crush? etc.

- Do you have a water profile and if so are you really adjusting for it properly?

 

[malkore]

Yeah, saying you 'increased to 1.25qt per pound' sounds like you still have a fairly thick mash, which might get more enzymatic activity but won't rinse the sugars as well.

recalibrate all of your tools (hydro/refractomer, thermometers, volume measuring tools, etc)
check your crush too.

 

[phrogpilot73]

I was having the same problem. Then for some odd reason I decided to check to see if my floating thermometer was off. Put it in a glass of ice water (should read 32), and it read 40! So when I thought I was holding my mash at 158, I was holding it at 150... I corrected my mash temperatures for that, and was only .002 off my OG. On the high side

 

[schmagy]

i may be missing some of the information, but when i run your numbers thru mashwater, and my spreadsheet, i come up with 8 and some change gallons of water. i would double check your volume measurements and how you are calculating. 10 gal seems like a lot of water. Maybe not accounting for mashtun losses correctly, along with adding extra water to account for "boiloff" which could be mashtun losses?

 

[Beernip]

From looking at this you mashed with 4G of water and got a 1.087 first running. You batched sparged with 6G of water and got 1.010 for your second runnings. Combining the two together you would have a pre-boil gravity of 1.036 and after a 90 minute boil that would come down to 1.043. If that is the case it sounds correct.

How many gallons of wort do you have from your first runnings? Make sure you are getting all of it from the mash tun. The issue would seem like you batch sparge (1.010 seems low to me) is inefficient. Are you using ph adjuster in your sparge water? Are you stirring really well after you add the water? How long are you waiting after you add the water to start the drain?

 

[marc06]

With a preboil gravity of 1.010, are you adjusting for temperature with your hydrometer?

 

[PetVet]

Thank you to everyone who weighed in on my problem. After reading through this thread I've found some great points and tips. First off, I have Midwest, Northern Brewer or the LHBS crush my grains so I gotta trust they are doing it right. I do know I used 10 gallons of water for the whole brew session because I used 5 gallons of distilled water and 5 of tap water to get the right profile for a Pilsner Urquell clone. That being said, I still may not have used the correct amount of water. Stirring the mash at mash-in has always been good for me and holding the temp with the Igloo coolers hasn't been a problem but, I think I need to watch my temps a little more carefully during the mash and sparge temps. The thing I really am interested in is batch sparging. I don't know anything about it or how to do it. If it saves time and gives good results, then I'm all for trying it. Another question I have is what figures do you use to calculate amounts of mash water and sparge water for a given batch? I am using Beersmith but, if there's a better way, I am way open to trying it. My equipment could be re-calculated and, maybe, I didn't stir the wort enough as I finished sparging and got a crappy reading. After seeinfg the calculations on this thread of having to boil down 25 gallons to 6 gallons to gat to 1.042 from 1.010, I now really think I've just been a bleeding novice that didn't realize the obvious. I'm sure I've forgotten to mention a few other points I've picked up here but I'll be sure to re-read these and give credit where it is due. Thank you to every one. This is the best site and I really appreciate all the great advice.

 

[ekranzusch]

Just a few things to think about...
+1 Thermometer (I always use 2 now after having the exact same "it's off by 8 degrees problem, one on each side of the mash tun)
+1 Crush. Bad crush will get ya every time.
+1 Batch sparging. It's easy and works very well.
What are you using for a manifold?
Is your grain bed deep enough? (IE How big is your grain bill vs. how big is your Mash Tun)
Does your recipe have a low Diastatic power?
Do you do an iodine test to check that conversion has finished?
Sure the grain does not taste sweet at the top of the MLT, but what about in the middle and the bottom?
Are you using the same recipe every time? It might help if you do until you can get your problem figured out.

Hope something in the list helps

 

[Suthrncomfrt1884]

Thank you to everyone who weighed in on my problem. After reading through this thread I've found some great points and tips. First off, I have Midwest, Northern Brewer or the LHBS crush my grains so I gotta trust they are doing it right. I do know I used 10 gallons of water for the whole brew session because I used 5 gallons of distilled water and 5 of tap water to get the right profile for a Pilsner Urquell clone. That being said, I still may not have used the correct amount of water. Stirring the mash at mash-in has always been good for me and holding the temp with the Igloo coolers hasn't been a problem but, I think I need to watch my temps a little more carefully during the mash and sparge temps. The thing I really am interested in is batch sparging. I don't know anything about it or how to do it. If it saves time and gives good results, then I'm all for trying it. Another question I have is what figures do you use to calculate amounts of mash water and sparge water for a given batch? I am using Beersmith but, if there's a better way, I am way open to trying it. My equipment could be re-calculated and, maybe, I didn't stir the wort enough as I finished sparging and got a crappy reading. After seeinfg the calculations on this thread of having to boil down 25 gallons to 6 gallons to gat to 1.042 from 1.010, I now really think I've just been a bleeding novice that didn't realize the obvious. I'm sure I've forgotten to mention a few other points I've picked up here but I'll be sure to re-read these and give credit where it is due. Thank you to every one. This is the best site and I really appreciate all the great advice.

Batch sparging is simple and I've done it a few different ways. One is when you do a mash out and one without....

With mashout:
1. After your mash is complete and you're ready to sparge, add enough boiling water to bring your entire mash temp up to 170F.
2. When your mash is at 170 or very close to it, vorlauf and drain everything in the tun to your kettle.
3. Figure out how much more water you'll need after grain absorbtion to hit your target pre-boil volume.
4. Bring this amount of water to 170F and add it to the now empty mash (just grains). Let it sit for a few minutes while the grain bed settles again (not absolutely neccessary but I do it anyway) then vorlauf and drain remaining water to your kettle.

Without mashout: You'll need a bigger mashtun for this if doing bigger beers.
1. After figuring out how much your grains will absorb, add enough water to your tun to hit your pre-boil volume. This water should be hot enough to bring the entire mash to 170F. Let it sit for a few minutes, vorlauf, and drain.

The only difference between the two is you're using less steps without the mashout. I prefer the mashout method just because it lets the grains soak a little longer.

There's plenty of ways to batch sparge, and I'm sure everyone has their own methods...but this is what works for me and I consistantly hit high efficiency numbers.

 

[PetVet]

Thank you for the batch sparging method. I think I'm going ot try it on my next batch and see what I get. It's gotta be better than what I'm getting now. I really appreciate all the help.

Thank you!!

 

[LooyvilleLarry]

With a preboil gravity of 1.010, are you adjusting for temperature with your hydrometer?

And I'd make sure that was calibrated with distilled water. I have had these be off a bit (not 6 points though) .

 

[JediJoel]

In BeerSmith select the mash profile with the batch sparge option. Then if you click Preview BrewSheet at the top it will give you step-by-step instructions and how much water to add for the batch sparge. I've got it pretty dialed in by adjusting my equipment after a couple of brews. And measurements will adjust if you plug in your efficiency as well.

 

[DrinkNoH2O]

Pre boil 1.010 to post boil 1.042 is not possible. Are you adjusting for temperature when you take your readings? If the wort is hot it will completely skew your readings.

 

[PetVet]

Yeah, I have to agree with you. I have no idea how I got 1.040 from 1.010. Its gotta be a measurement error. I was pondering just putting the tube from the HLT on the surface of the mash (I've read about that and other methods in the DIY section) and/or trying batch sparging on another to see which one works the best. I'll check out Beersmith's batch sparging part for the schedule. I am also going to invest in a digtal thermometer like the ones for grilling to monitor the temp rises because maybe my kettle thermo suck as well.

Thanks for all the help!

Joe

 

[Got Trub?]

I have yet to see a digital thermometer be accurate. I calibrate mine against the brewmometers on my kettles. My current one is off by 7F at mashing temperatures...

GT

 

[samc]

I have yet to see a digital thermometer be accurate. I calibrate mine against the brewmometers on my kettles. My current one is off by 7F at mashing temperatures...

GT

My digitals from the cheap to the medium price are dead on accurate. You should not be calibrating to brewmometers, but to known temps like ice water slush or boiling water.

 

[Pivovar_Koucky]

Did you check your hydrometer? I think that they can develop microscopic cracks that throw off the measurement. You could drop it into some tap water for a quick check and if thats on you could make a solution with table sugar to check against.

 

[Got Trub?]

My digitals from the cheap to the medium price are dead on accurate. You should not be calibrating to brewmometers, but to known temps like ice water slush or boiling water.

My brewmometers are calibrated. I've tried the Taylor brand ones as well as cooking thermometers with the wire probes. None of them have been accurate. The wire probe ones don't seem to like the humidity of a mash tun either as they eventually stop working. I'm going back to analog for my mash tun.

GT

 

[Randar]

My brewmometers are calibrated. I've tried the Taylor brand ones as well as cooking thermometers with the wire probes. None of them have been accurate. The wire probe ones don't seem to like the humidity of a mash tun either as they eventually stop working. I'm going back to analog for my mash tun.

+1 on the digital cooking probes. Works great on the grill... blows in the mash.

 

[jds]

Batch sparging is simple and I've done it a few different ways. One is when you do a mash out and one without....

With mashout:
1. After your mash is complete and you're ready to sparge, add enough boiling water to bring your entire mash temp up to 170F.
2. When your mash is at 170 or very close to it, vorlauf and drain everything in the tun to your kettle.
3. Figure out how much more water you'll need after grain absorbtion to hit your target pre-boil volume.
4. Bring this amount of water to 170F and add it to the now empty mash (just grains). Let it sit for a few minutes while the grain bed settles again (not absolutely neccessary but I do it anyway) then vorlauf and drain remaining water to your kettle.

Without mashout: You'll need a bigger mashtun for this if doing bigger beers.
1. After figuring out how much your grains will absorb, add enough water to your tun to hit your pre-boil volume. This water should be hot enough to bring the entire mash to 170F. Let it sit for a few minutes, vorlauf, and drain.

The only difference between the two is you're using less steps without the mashout. I prefer the mashout method just because it lets the grains soak a little longer.

There's plenty of ways to batch sparge, and I'm sure everyone has their own methods...but this is what works for me and I consistantly hit high efficiency numbers.

A third method you can use (without a mashout), that doesn't require as big a mashtun is:

1. When the mash is complete, vorlauf and drain the mash tun completely.
2. Measure the volume of your first runnings.
3. Subtract first runnings volume from your target preboil volume, and divide by 2.
4. Add the volume you calculated in the previous step of sparge water, preheated to 180-185F. Stir well, wait a few minutes for the mash to settle, vorlauf, and run off the second runnings.
5. Repeat the previous step to collect the final runnings.

You can use water that's above the 165-170F recommendation for fly sparging, because the mash pH doesn't drop as drastically at the end of the sparge, so tannin extraction is less of a problem. Theroretical analyses show that double-batch sparging with equal volumes provides the best efficiency for extracting sugars from your mash.

Personally, I've had great luck with quite thin mashes. I usually mash at 1.5 to 1.75 quarts per lb, but that's because I have a 60 quart cooler I can mash in. I like the ease of stirring the thinner mash. That makes my sparges a bit smaller, but I still hit 75% efficiency regularly with this method, using grain crushed at the LHBS.

Honestly, I wouldn't worry as much about hitting a specific efficiency target as in hitting the same efficiency consistently. If you're consistently hitting 60 or 65% efficiency, you can compensate by increasing the grain bill. Inconsistency, on the other hand, makes hitting a target gravity a crapshoot.

 

[PetVet]

I do believe I will batch sparge the next beer I brew. I really had no idea how simple and efficient it was. If I can raise the efficiency that much I could cut down my grain bill. Because it sucks so bad, I've been increasing the grain by 50-75% and still sucking at hitting the OG. The second and third runnings seems intriguing since some beers I brew have very high gravities. Maybe, I could make a second-runnings beer from a higher gravity beer once I get a good efficiency established. Has anyone tried this? I do think I'll stick with working on my technique first, but once that's ok maybe try that if its possible. I did buy a digital thermo last night before I checked the forum. I think I will compare it to my anolog on boiling water and ice water to check the calibration. But, hey, if its off, I just got a great thermo for smoking brisket, etc.
Thank you to all!