Why Do Dark Beers Take Longer to Carbonate?

[NothingRhymesWithCurtiss]

I know that dark beers (Stouts, Porters...) take longer to carbonate both from what I've read and from personal experience, but what I want to know is why do they take longer?

I've had a pale ale in bottles for just over a week and last night when I drank one, I got a decent amount of head when I poured it into a glass. (Whenever bottling I always fill a few PET bottles to gauge carbonation based on firmness of the bottles.)

On the other hand, I've got a Brown IPA that has been in bottles for going on 5 weeks, and it pours completely flat and the PET bottles are soft.

So again, why does it take longer for dark beers to carbonate?

 

[peterj]

I've never heard of or experienced dark beers taking longer to carbonate. There's no reason I can think of for that to be the case. Higher alcohol beers will take longer to carbonate. And carbonation will take longer at cooler temperatures.

Was your Brown IPA high gravity? Did you keep these beers at the same temperature and what was the temperature? I would look at something in your process to explain the slow carbonation.

 

[MattyIce]

Something is wrong with your process if a low-moderate beer is not carbed after five weeks. I do not experience a noticeable carbonation time frame difference when I force carb. Three weeks in a bottle and a couple days in the fridge is more than enough for any normal gravity brew for me when I got that route.

 

[NothingRhymesWithCurtiss]

Thanks for the replies.

For priming I used the Northern Brewer site and based on Temp, Style and Volume, used about 0.23 cup Dextrose.

Not sure if it matters, this brew was extract (DME) with specialty grains.

For my previous dark beers, Stouts and Porters, I used priming/carbonation tablets, but moved away from them to save some money.

 

[TheMadKing]

Thanks for the replies.

For priming I used the Northern Brewer site and based on Temp, Style and Volume, used about 0.23 cup Dextrose.

Not sure if it matters, this brew was extract (DME) with specialty grains.

For my previous dark beers, Stouts and Porters, I used priming/carbonation tablets, but moved away from them to save some money.

that seems pretty low to me. I usually use between .75-1 cup of dextrose for a 5 gallon batch.

What were your gravity readings on the brown IPA before bottling, and what temperature has it been stored at?

 

[peterj]

Yeah if that was a 5 gallon batch you probably won't get much carbonation with that amount of sugar. Like less than 1.5 volumes I'm guessing. I always go by weight in which case you should be adding about 0.75-1 oz per gallon of beer. According to that calculator you should have added about 0.5-0.7 cups (depending on how much CO2 you wanted). That's for 5 gallons though.

 

[MaxStout]

Use a bottling calculator to dial in the correct amount of sugar to use. The amount you used is far less then you need.

 

[peterj]

Did you cold crash this before bottling and use the cold crash temperature for the calculator? For the temperature input you should use the highest temperature the beer reached during fermentation or technically the highest temperature it reached while it was still producing a lot of CO2.

 

[TheMadKing]

Did you cold crash this before bottling and use the cold crash temperature for the calculator? For the temperature input you should use the highest temperature the beer reached during fermentation or technically the highest temperature it reached while it was still producing a lot of CO2.

Not trying to be contrary or rude, but don't you want to put in the temp that the beer will be conditioned/carbonated at? The temperature determines the rate of carbonation.

And I've cold crashed before bottling (and bottled while the beer was still ice cold) and still gotten plenty of carbonation. There is still a surprising amount of yeast in suspension after cold crashing.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Not trying to be contrary or rude, but don't you want to put in the temp that the beer will be conditioned/carbonated at? The temperature determines the rate of carbonation.

And I've cold crashed before bottling (and bottled while the beer was still ice cold) and still gotten plenty of carbonation. There is still a surprising amount of yeast in suspension after cold crashing.

No. You typically want to use the temp it's at when bottling. If you're going to extremes (lagering on one end, or something like a Saison at the other) it gets a little screwy and it's more of an estimate, but what you care about is the residual CO2 left in the beer when packaged, so that an appropriate amount of sugar is added to provide the appropiate amount of CO2 on top of the residual. At ~55F, approximately 1.1 volume of CO2 remains at one ATM. At ~65F, it's more like 0.9 volumes. The warmer you go, the less stays in solution. And even if you hit a warmer temp earlier, if it cools back down some CO2 will reabsorb, so a beer that's been lagered can have have a substantial residual CO2 even if it was fermented much warmer.

So if you want something cask conditioned at low carb from a beer fermented in normal ale range you're adding very little sugar. But if you're taking a Saison fermented at 90F and carbing to 3.5 volumes, you're going to need substantially higher.

Point is, the temp that you're carbing at has nothing to do with how much sugar you're using. I'm wondering if you're mixing up priming and force carbing.

Color shouldn't be a factor. Period. As said before, strength will be. I have a 35 SRM Dry Stout that's fully carbed in 5 days.

 

[TheMadKing]

No. You typically want to use the temp it's at when bottling. If you're going to extremes (lagering on one end, or something like a Saison at the other) it gets a little screwy and it's more of an estimate, but what you care about is the residual CO2 left in the beer when packaged, so that an appropriate amount of sugar is added to provide the appropiate amount of CO2 on top of the residual. At ~55F, approximately 1.1 volume of CO2 remains at one ATM. At ~65F, it's more like 0.9 volumes. The warmer you go, the less stays in solution. And even if you hit a warmer temp earlier, if it cools back down some CO2 will reabsorb, so a beer that's been lagered can have have a substantial residual CO2 even if it was fermented much warmer.

So if you want something cask conditioned at low carb from a beer fermented in normal ale range you're adding very little sugar. But if you're taking a Saison fermented at 90F and carbing to 3.5 volumes, you're going to need substantially higher.

Point is, the temp that you're carbing at has nothing to do with how much sugar you're using. I'm wondering if you're mixing up priming and force carbing.

Color shouldn't be a factor. Period. As said before, strength will be. I have a 35 SRM Dry Stout that's fully carbed in 5 days.

That's totally new info to me, I've never thought about residual co2 in suspension before. It does make perfect sense though.

No I'm not mixing up bottling and force carbing. I was talking about the fact that the temperature that you're carbonating at will affect the RATE of carbonation, but not the final volumes of co2. I guess I didn't say that very well.

But now that you say that, it doesn't make much sense. The rate of carbonation doesn't really matter anyway

My cold crashing comment wasn't in reference to the temperature of the beer at bottling, but the amount of yeast left for carbonation. Many people recommend not cold crashing before bottling because there won't be as much yeast in suspension. I was speaking from experience that this is not true.

100% agree that color is a non-issue and color ≠ strength which DOES matter

 

[Yooper]

Thanks for the replies.

For priming I used the Northern Brewer site and based on Temp, Style and Volume, used about 0.23 cup Dextrose.

Not sure if it matters, this brew was extract (DME) with specialty grains.

For my previous dark beers, Stouts and Porters, I used priming/carbonation tablets, but moved away from them to save some money.

As was mentioned, that is a tiny tiny amount of dextrose. The beer will not be very carbonated. You generally would use about ten times that amount in a 5 gallon batch.

As far as darker beers taking longer to carb up, that's not so.

Color doesn't affect the laws of physics. The laws of physics apply, and c02 will go into solution the same whether the beer is light colored or black.

 

[Qhrumphf]

That's totally new info to me, I've never thought about residual co2 in suspension before. It does make perfect sense though.

No I'm not mixing up bottling and force carbing. I was talking about the fact that the temperature that you're carbonating at will affect the RATE of carbonation, but not the final volumes of co2. I guess I didn't say that very well.

But now that you say that, it doesn't make much sense. The rate of carbonation doesn't really matter anyway

My cold crashing comment wasn't in reference to the temperature of the beer at bottling, but the amount of yeast left for carbonation. Many people recommend not cold crashing before bottling because there won't be as much yeast in suspension. I was speaking from experience that this is not true.

100% agree that color is a non-issue and color ≠ strength which DOES matter

Ok, gotcha. Yes, colder will carb slower. But that has nothing to do with a priming calculator. However if the OP is carbing at fridge temps, no wonder it would take forever to carb if it ever carbs at all (not saying that's what the OP did, just speaking rhetorically)

And I've lagered at ~40F for a month, fined with gelatin, and STILL had residual yeast to carbonate. I've bottled beers that have been aged in secondary for 5 or 6 months, and they've had residual yeast to carbonate. That's not to say that re-yeasting is a bad idea in some cases (with my lagered/fined beers I don't though, but I do with sours and strong ales), just that there's probably more yeast in suspension that you might think, even if you can't see it.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Also, I'm going to go ahead disagree with everyone, and say that I very much would enjoy that level of carbonation. 0.23 cups dextrose in 5 gallons at 65F is 1.5 volumes according to the Northern Brewer calculator. Given that cups are a shaky measurement anyway (grams or oz is much better), and the OP likely bottled more like 4.5 gallons in a 5 gallon batch, it's likely even a touch higher than that, 1.6-1.7 volumes. Low for an American Brown, but it's a pleasant amount of carbonation, and good for a more English style brown.

Most homebrewers way overcarbonate their beers unless they're Belgian, Weizen, or sour, and then they usually don't carbonate them enough.

 

[NothingRhymesWithCurtiss]

The was 0.23 cup Dextrose for a 2 gallon batch. I forgot to include the Volume of beer ::face palm::

I did not cold crash and used the temp the beer was at, at the time of bottling, when using the priming sugar calculator.

I started carbing at approximately 60 degrees F for about 3 weeks. The beer has since been moved to a room that goes between 65 and 68. (Walk-in furnace closet.)

The Pale that carbed up right away has been in the furnace closet the entire time.

I'll let it go another few weeks before cracking another open.

Thanks.

 

[TheMadKing]

I started carbing at approximately 60 degrees F for about 3 weeks.

Ah, I suspect that's partly your problem. 60 is pretty cool for carbonation, but you should have SOMETHING after 5 weeks.

I would recommend swirling your bottles and storing them in the warmest room you have (68-75F if possible) that will rouse the yeast and get things moving along.

 

[NothingRhymesWithCurtiss]

I would recommend swirling your bottles and storing them in the warmest room you have (68-75F if possible) that will rouse the yeast and get things moving along.

Bottles were swirled this morning.

Thanks again to everyone for the advice/insights!

 

[Javaslinger]

Erm... So what happened??? Did it ever carb??

 

[Murphys_Law]

Erm... So what happened??? Did it ever carb??

If they haven't carb'd in 2 years I doubt if they ever will!!