Why do all grain when LME/DME & Partial Grain so EASY?

[mooshimanx]

I know Gordon Strong gets a lot of flak for that comment, but I agree with him: to some extrent it's the difference between baking a cake out of a box and making the cake yourself from scratch. Part of it is just meaningless pride, but its fun and gratifying to do it yourself.

That said, I still do extract batches all the time if it fits what I'm trying to do - if I want to make a simple pale ale to figure out what a new hop varietal tastes like, I'm not going to spend three hours doing a mash. I also make simple fruit-wheat beers out of extract as well.

 

[InLimbo]

I know Gordon Strong gets a lot of flak for that comment, but I agree with him: to some extrent it's the difference between baking a cake out of a box and making the cake yourself from scratch. Part of it is just meaningless pride, but its fun and gratifying to do it yourself.

I understand what you are saying, but it seems nothing but arbitrary to say that AG is the difference between actually maker beer or not. Sooner or later some other pretentious homebrewer will come along who malts his own grain, or grows and harvests his own grain. He'll proceed to thump his chest and proclaim that if you don't harvest your own grains, you're not a real brewer. I don't dispute that gordon strong knows a lot about beer, but that has always pissed me off that he dismisses extract brewers so arbitrarily. For the record I'm an AG brewer myself.

 

[45_70sharps]

If you are asking why use grain instead of extract, then the answer is that it's not for you. That simple.

I'd rather kill 29 rabbits and an elephant than step into a walmart, even if there was a $10 fee.

A man after my own heart. You will never see me in wally world.

i hope one day i can try algrains brewing it sounds fun but what do u do with all the leftover grains or does it all dissolve into the beer?

The grain is mashed. The water converts the starch to sugar and the sugar is carried in the water. You drain the water and throw the grain away or use it for whatever you want.
Go to youtube and do a search for mashing.

 

[malweth]

AG is a lot more work. You also, IMHO, get a lot more out of it.

For any given recipe (my rough estimate):
% Technique during and after fermentation is 75%
% Technique during the boil is 5%
% Technique during the mash is 20%

In my opinion, you're letting someone else create 20% of the beer. That's not a *bad* thing... and you can still make amazing beer, but (again, IMO) it's true.

Technique during malting (or any other ingredient) is a tiny fraction of the above. Choosing malts, hops, etc. is recipe formulation (not technique).

 

[mooshimanx]

I understand what you are saying, but it seems nothing but arbitrary to say that AG is the difference between actually maker beer or not. Sooner or later some other pretentious homebrewer will come along who malts his own grain, or grows and harvests his own grain. He'll proceed to thump his chest and proclaim that if you don't harvest your own grains, you're not a real brewer. I don't dispute that gordon strong knows a lot about beer, but that has always pissed me off that he dismisses extract brewers so arbitrarily. For the record I'm an AG brewer myself.

I think that's kind of a false equivalence. The difference between extract brewing and all-grain and all-grain and estate brewing is pretty vast since there really isn't some variety of malt you can't get beyond making it yourself. I don't see how its arbitrary at all in the sense that you flat out can't do a number of things in brewing a beer without mashing.

 

[iBrewR]

Sooner or later some other pretentious homebrewer will come along who malts his own grain, or grows and harvests his own grain. He'll proceed to thump his chest and proclaim that if you don't harvest your own grains, you're not a real brewer.

I think it's fair to say that you don't have to raise your own cattle to be a chef, but if you only making TV dinners, some would question it if you're calling yourself a cook.

It's kind of like making ice tea from a powder mix and calling it homemade because you added a lemon. :cross:

 

[malweth]

I think it's fair to say that you don't have to raise your own cattle to be a chef, but if you only making TV dinners, some would question it if you're calling yourself a cook.

It's kind of like making ice tea from a powder mix and calling it homemade because you added a lemon. :cross:

That's not really fair, though. The amount of work difference between instant and homemade is easily 1000%. (Not that it's difficult to make tea at all). The difference between extract and all grain is probably more like 20% overall.

Both sides in the conversation are taking extreme points of view. That's an argument, not a discussion.

Regarding Estate Brewing - that is another step that someone could take to gain more control over the process, but each step is increasingly minute. There are many, many grains to choose from to the point where you'll have more control over the end product than if you malted and/or grew the grain yourself. The same goes for growing your own hops. At a homebrew scale it's practically impossible to accurately determine the effect the hops will have. Even craft breweries can't determine the exact effect when fresh hopping.

 

[Phunhog]

You have to remember it's not just homebrewing. All hobbies that have various degrees of complexity and fanaticism deal with this. In the end you have to do what gives you the most personal satisfaction. An example is that If I can I would rather buy brewing equipment off the shelf and ready to go. Others would rather make the equipment themselves. One is not better than the other.

 

[Nightshade]

AG is a lot more work. You also, IMHO, get a lot more out of it.

For any given recipe (my rough estimate):
% Technique during and after fermentation is 75%
% Technique during the boil is 5%
% Technique during the mash is 20%

In my opinion, you're letting someone else create 20% of the beer. That's not a *bad* thing... and you can still make amazing beer, but (again, IMO) it's true.

Technique during malting (or any other ingredient) is a tiny fraction of the above. Choosing malts, hops, etc. is recipe formulation (not technique).

I think you are vastly underrating the ingredent selection and quantity as well as quality of each which takes your mash technique up a bit higher since they are related in some fashion.

 

[Billy-Klubb]

I think you are vastly underrating the ingredent selection and quantity as well as quality of each which takes your mash technique up a bit higher since they are related in some fashion.

THIS!!!

and I enjoy the process. extract can NOT replace the whole process. I brewed with extract for about 13 years. made some great beers. I finally expanded and enjoy it.

 

[Horseballs]

I brew all grain just about once a week. I also work in a shipping department, and the past week beat me up quite a bit. I took it easy and did an extract batch instead and damn it was nice. Doesn't scratch the "i must control everything" itch like all grain does, but it was a nice change of pace and an easier brew day. Either method it is up to the brewer.

Also, oatmeal stouts are totally worth the extra effort of mashing.

 

[BxBrewer]

My small house, my SWMBO, time and out of necessity. I brew extract. I just don't have the storage space for the gear. My man cave is a closet and its to the gills. I envy the guys with a garage.

Outside of that. Paying 3.50 for a Sam Adams 12oz because of taxes and the bodega thinks its exotic beer. Start to Finnish my brew day is a couple of hours.

 

[FightinIrish]

number 1 cost. Number 2 control. Number 3 , its way more fun!!

+1!

 

[Golddiggie]

In the same theme as the OP...

Why have a car when you can just take the BUS??

 

[lumpher]

have you ever tasted an extract russian imperial stout?

 

[Clonefan94]

It's not about it being "easier"!! It is about enjoying the process of brewing. Brewing with extracts takes a large part of the brewing process out of your hands.

This is it for me. Yeah, the other benefits definitely play a part. Cost, control, but in the end, I really enjoy brewing beer and that's why I do it. It's like building your own furniture, rebuilding a classic car, you do it for the love of doing it.

 

[Billy-Klubb]

have you ever tasted an extract russian imperial stout?

yes. and it was quite tasty.

 

[BxBrewer]

The nice thing is it can be as easy or complex as one wants it to be. In the end were making something thats better than you can buy. Doing this were not supporting big advertisment

 

[ryno1ryno]

Okay... you guys worked me over on this one (not that this thread was just about me). I will have to learn more about the mash schedules though and find some easy ones first.

Is base grain cheaper than LME by much? In some cases you need 8-10 lbs of grain.

Also, where is the scientific evidence about the sugar/enzyme/temp change reactions?

 

[zachattack]

Okay... you guys worked me over on this one (not that this thread was just about me). I will have to learn more about the mash schedules though and find some easy ones first.

Is base grain cheaper than LME by much? In some cases you need 8-10 lbs of grain.

Also, where is the scientific evidence about the sugar/enzyme/temp change reactions?

Base grain can be very cheap, especially when you start buying it in bulk.

I'd suggest doing some reading, John Palmer's How To Brew is a great place to start! The first edition is free online, here's the "intro to all grain" chapter:
http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/index.html

 

[kombat]

Personally, I went all-grain in an effort to eliminate the omnipresent sweet-metallic extract "twang" that was in my canned extract kit+LME beers. Having made the transition, I now feel much more pride in my beer. When I serve someone an extract kit beer, and they ask, "This is homemade?", I feel compelled to offer a disclaimer, "Yes, I made this, but it's from an extract kit, not from scratch." Conversely, when I pour a guest a pint brewed from grains, I proudly answer, "Yup, made it from scratch. Come on downstairs, I'd be happy to show you the brewery."

It's empowering knowing you have complete control of the entire process, from grain selection, milling tolerances, mash temperature/schedule, plus (of course) everything after the mash, which is in common with extract brewers. It's a source of pride for me.

 

[Golddiggie]

Personally, I went all-grain in an effort to eliminate the omnipresent sweet-metallic extract "twang" that was in my canned extract kit+LME beers. Having made the transition, I now feel much more pride in my beer. When I serve someone an extract kit beer, and they ask, "This is homemade?", I feel compelled to offer a disclaimer, "Yes, I made this, but it's from an extract kit, not from scratch." Conversely, when I pour a guest a pint brewed from grains, I proudly answer, "Yup, made it from scratch. Come on downstairs, I'd be happy to show you the brewery."

It's empowering knowing you have complete control of the entire process, from grain selection, milling tolerances, mash temperature/schedule, plus (of course) everything after the mash, which is in common with extract brewers. It's a source of pride for me.

IMO, a good number of us go all grain more for the control than cost savings. Although you CAN save good money if you buy your grain right.

Raise a pint if you brew all grain. :rockin: Well, maybe a pint of coffee at this wee hour.

 

[AnOldUR]

IMO, a good number of us go all grain more for the control than cost savings.

I'd guess that the OCD that drives someone to AG also means that they'll never save money by homebrewing.

 

[ryno1ryno]

I'd guess that the OCD that drives someone to AG also means that they'll never save money by homebrewing.

Especially if you end up picking 8 different types of specialty grains.

Okay, I have already seen recipes that call for different darkness but of the same type... for instance, Carmel 30L, Carmel 60L and then Carmel 130L in the same recipe. I mean, cant all that just be averaged and simplified?

 

[zachattack]

No. Each of the caramel/crystal malts brings a completely different flavor profile, from light sweetness, caramel, toffee, burnt sugar, raisins, etc. Averaging them might give you the same color, but not the same flavor.

 

[Golddiggie]

I'd guess that the OCD that drives someone to AG also means that they'll never save money by homebrewing.

Not really. At least not if you're smart about buying your ingredients. Paying $80 per sack of grain is insane (after shipping and such). But getting in on a group grain buy means you might spend half that. Buy hops in bulk and you save again. Easy to save on yeast with at least a few methods too.

 

[AnOldUR]

Not really. At least not if you're smart about buying your ingredients.

Wasn't talking about just ingredients. Have you put a price tag on your entire system?

(. . . and not the one you show to your wife :cross

 

[Golddiggie]

Wasn't talking about just ingredients. Have you put a price tag on your entire system?

Nope... Don't need to. Most of the gear is actually stuff I've made/modified. The few exceptions are the Duda Diesel chiller, Monster Mill MM2-2.0 and Blichmann burners.

(. . . and not the one you show to your wife :cross

Not married. :cross: So I don't need to show anyone anything. :rockin:

Also, IF you're decent with tools, you can make a good amount of the gear you'll use.

 

[Nightshade]

I'd guess that the OCD that drives someone to AG also means that they'll never save money by homebrewing.

I guess the complacency that allows you to stay with extract or prefab kits will only ever allow you to make someone elses beer recipe.



see what I did there

 

[malweth]

I think you are vastly underrating the ingredent selection and quantity as well as quality of each which takes your mash technique up a bit higher since they are related in some fashion.

No way! Sure, it plays a role in technique, but a much bigger role in recipe formulation, which I purposefully excluded.

There's just not that big a difference in recipes between all-grain and extract with steeping grains. I'd say the biggest difference between the two comes during fermentation and fermentability of the wort (which also comes from mash technique)

If you're talking about straight extract brewing (no grains), I would certainly agree with you, but who does that?