"White Stout" critique

[BrewinBromanite]

I am wanting to attempt a "white stout" of sorts, since that seems to be the trendy thing to do right now. I realize this is not really something that will truly be a stout..., and might be a pipe-dream, but experimenting is fun.

I'm looking for a VERY creamy body. I also am NOT looking for much sweetness, so lactose or crystal (aside from the cara-pils) is not being considered here on purpose. The hops I'm considering are somewhat Americanized for a stout-ish beer, but...I'm American, and styles be damned.

I would like to have some roastiness to it, without the intense dark colors of most roasted grains. So, I'm thinking brown-malt would be a good candidate. I've never used it, however, but am intrigued by it. Descriptions on AHS make it sound quite roasty - but I'm curious if it actually lend more of a toasty or biscuity flavor akin to victory or biscuit malt??

As you can see, the grainbill is pretty much a twist of a typical stout recipe, with the brown malt used in place of the traditional roasted barley. This manages to keep the color according to Beersmith to 9.3 SRM - which I would consider acceptable for this franken-stout.

So, has anyone out there ever tried swapping brown malt for roasted barley in these proportions? Or used up to 1 lb with good results? This is my biggest x-factor, and am asking those with experience using brown malt.

I'm also thinking of adding some brewed blonde roast coffee after primary fermentation subsides (like a cup or 2). I don't think it will add too much color, and I'm thinking will lend some stout-ish flavor with minimal color. Would more coffee and less brown malt be a better combo for what I'm after?

Any other ideas, critiques, etc. are also more than welcome.


Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Estimated OG: 1.050 SG
Estimated Color: 9.3 SRM
Estimated IBU: 37.7 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.00 %
Mash for 1 hr at 55 deg.
Boil Time: 60 Minutes
Yeast: 1.5 L starter of WLP007

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name %/IBU
6 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) 63.2 %
1 lbs Barley, Flaked (1.7 SRM) 10.5 %
1 lbs Brown Malt (65.0 SRM) 10.5 %
1 lbs Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) 10.5 %
8.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) 5.3 %
0.75 oz EKG [5.00 %] - Boil 60.0 Hop 12.9 IBUs
0.75 oz EKG [5.00 %] - Boil 30.0 Hop 9.9 IBUs
0.25 oz Cascade [7.30 %] - Boil 30.0 min 4.8 IBUs
0.75 oz Cascade [7.30 %] - Boil 10.0 min 6.8 IBUs
0.50 oz EKG [5.00 %] - Boil 10.0 Hop 3.1 IBUs

(Maybe a cup or 2 of blonde roast coffee added a week before bottling.)

Cheers, and thanks in advance for any feedback or suggestions!

 

[tedclev]

Coffee idea sounds good. As for ruling out lactose, I wouldn't. Lactose is not very sweet at all, only about 1/6 as sweet as sucrose. If you want creaminess, use it. Just add enough hops to keep your IBU:OG balanced where you want.

 

[BrewinBromanite]

Thanks for the feedback. May not completely rule out lactose, but not necessarily shooting for a milk-white-stout for this one.

At its most basic, my main question is if you were to take a simple stout recipe (ie...70% pale malt, 10% roasted barley, 20% flaked barley) - and substituted the 10% roasted barley with 10% brown malt - if this would work, or just be disgusting?

While I haven't yet used brown malt (and realize these 2 are not interchangeable in the slightest under normal circumstances), I'd like to know if this might taste good, or if it would be undrinkable?

 

[tennesseean_87]

It won't taste like a stout. You won't get nearly as much roast character from brown malt. It will be more biscuity, but toward the roasted/pale chocolate side of biscuit malt. I like to use amber malt (like brown but lighter) in my brown ales (but with choclate malt, too). Try it if you want, but don't expect it to taste like a stout.

 

[JMeyer]

I'm also looking to do a White Stout in the near future. Everywhere I look, this is closer to a barley wine that is flavored to mimic a stout, than a stout. So this is how I'm approaching it, roasted flavor is not attainable with this faux style and the "stout" is more the robust amount of the grain bill and then flavoring with the flavors associated with the darker grains.

For the flavorings I'm going to use coffee, chocolate, and I'm thinking about using vanilla. The flavors are only subtle in a stout, so in the blonde version, I'm adding only slight amounts to the secondary. This gets the subtle flavors without adding too much on the color.

Also, I have a question about the use of blonde roast coffee; how is it Blonde? I would be wary of dairy product of some sort, I say this knowing that "White Coffee" has dairy in it. Thus adding fats.

 

[BrewinBromanite]

tennesseean_87: Yeah, I completely realize this won't be a true "stout." Might as well call it a sarcastic-stout. I'm really going for the body of a creamy stout, but lighter color (but also maintaining "some" of the stout-like character). So, that's where the brown malt came into mind - as the descriptions say it can be roasty. Roasty like dark roast barley - NO, but some roasty character perhaps. I'd still like to hear from those that have used brown malt up to a lb in a 5 gal batch?

JMeyer: As for the coffee - I'm a huge dark, bold coffee and espresso fan (no sugar or creamer for me, ever!) I got a couple samples of Starbuck's Blonde roast coffee a couple months back. Expecting it to taste like watery weak coffee - I was quite surprised how complex and smooth it was (and not light-tasting) for a "blonde" roast.

I don't recall which blonde it was in particular, but their website currently shows 2 blends - a Veranda and a Willow blend blonde (I'm thinking I tried the Veranda one if I had to guess). These are not flavored coffees, and don't contain dairy or anything like that. It's just about the level of roast and the blending. It seemed like an appropriate choice for this "Blonde/white stout" creation - to layer in a little extra dimension reminiscent of a stout, and probably doesn't impart as much color as a darker roast coffee, or coffee malt or chocolate malt for that matter.

I will probably brew one of these blonde coffees as strong as possible (maybe even through my espresso maker), and add after primary fermentation subsides (I don't do secondaries). A little vanilla sounds interesting too - but I may see how it comes out without, and if its any good - add that next time.

I appreciate the feedback. Please keep it coming if anyone has anything else to add or suggest.

 

[tennesseean_87]

Full disclosure, I think the idea of a White Stout is ridiculous.

I've only used Brown malt in smaller quantities though a Brown Porter with a good chunk of it might be up next.

Depending on what you're going for, I think a high mash temp, lots of flaked barley and/or oats, and adding what flavors you will could be the ticket. Iron Hill (Brewpub) did a Tripel with coffee that didn't get dark, but the flavor was muddle with vanilla beans and bourbon barrel, so I can't tell you how much coffee flavor it had.

The stout mouthfeel with a pale beer reminds me of Boddingtons on Nitro a little.

Good luck with your brews!

 

[FarmerTed]

Personally, I'd punt on the Cascade and go with EKG at the end, and use a higher alpha bittering hop, like Northdown or Northern Brewer. I think an earthier hop profile would work better with the roast background than a citrus hop would. I also second using flaked barley to get more of a creamy mouthfeel.

 

[BrewinBromanite]

Full disclosure, I think the idea of a White Stout is ridiculous.

... The stout mouthfeel with a pale beer reminds me of Boddingtons on Nitro a little.

Good luck with your brews!

Regarding calling it a "white stout" - >>> Me too. Just a quirky name for something that its really not. All my non-craft brew family and friends won't know any better anyways.

As for the Boddington's reference - >>> This was actually kind of my inspiration. So I'm really aiming for a roasty, mildly hoppy Boddington-esque beer. I bottle (nitro's out of the question) so the 1/2 lb of carapils on top of 2 lbs flaked is just kind of a little extra something to get more creaminess. Still hoping a full lb of brown won't render it undrinkable. May tone it back to .75 lbs.

 

[BrewinBromanite]

Personally, I'd punt on the Cascade and go with EKG at the end, and use a higher alpha bittering hop, like Northdown or Northern Brewer. I think an earthier hop profile would work better with the roast background than a citrus hop would. I also second using flaked barley to get more of a creamy mouthfeel.

I've gone back and forth with using a C hop with this. I have had some very roasty & citrusy-hoppy stouts and/or black IPA's - and was surprised that I enjoyed them, as they seem to up against all conventions. I may bump the EKG up at the end a little more, but will probably still use some cascade to a small degree. Nothing past 10 mins. As for the flaked - I did include a pound each of barley and oats in the initial post. Hopefully that plus some carapils, plus a 155 deg mash (and a planned lower carbonation) will somewhat emulate a boddington's type of body/mouthfeel without the nitro. I'm going to keep researching and tinkering a bit.

Still curious if anyone's used brown with much success at over 1/2 lb?

 

[tennesseean_87]

I don't think 1 lb would be too much roasted flavor if that's the only roasted malt you're using. Just watch your color. I've seen brown porter recipes with a big chunk of brown malt, and some mention of trying a 50/50 pale/brown porter. Look up Atonement Brown Porter in the Recipe section--it uses 25% brown malt in addition to some black patent.

 

[BrewinBromanite]

I don't think 1 lb would be too much roasted flavor if that's the only roasted malt you're using. Just watch your color. I've seen brown porter recipes with a big chunk of brown malt, and some mention of trying a 50/50 pale/brown porter. Look up Atonement Brown Porter in the Recipe section--it uses 25% brown malt in addition to some black patent.

I may just have to give it a try with the brown malt. I have seen a lot of porters using some brown. Beer Smith is putting my recipe at only 9 SRM. Most of the porters with brown also tend to have either black patent, some roasted barley, chocolate, dark crystal malts, or a some combo of those. With just the brown, looks like the color I'm going for should be ok. Taste wise - that I don't know.

Another x-factor I've just realized, is that the vendor I order from only offers Hugh Baird's brown. The manufacturer website only lists Amber, and I've read all sorts of mixed info on whether or not it's a true brown malt. It might be a PIA to find TF brown. I actually don't really mind just trying whatever brown I can get. If the Baird's brown malt has some roasty character to it - I'm fine with that. Just don't want it to be closer to biscuit malt. A little toast/nutty is ok, but leaning towards a dry roasty flavor is what I'm after.

 

[tennesseean_87]

Roast your own
http://barleypopmaker.info/2009/12/08/home-roasting-your-malts/

 

[tennesseean_87]

Except look at his color designations. Shoot for half-way between Amber and copper, not what he calls brown malt.

 

[BrewinBromanite]

Thanks for the link. Cool info!

 

[BrewinBromanite]

Going to play around with the recipe a bit more, and hopefully will be brewing this up in 2 or 3 weeks. I'll post up with results.