White Pale Ale

[SLFcentralOH]

I want to do something like a white pale ale for a memorial day BBQ and have been working on the recipe for the past few weeks. I seem to be leaning towards a fairly traditional witbier with the exception being a lot of late addition hops that provide citrusy flavors. 95% of the people who will be at this event are not hop heads so I have to keep the IBU's way down. They have complained about my home brew being too bitter in the past.

So far I have for a 5 gallon batch:

5 lbs pilsner
4 lbs flaked wheat
.25 lbs flaked oats

.25 oz Centennial @60
.25 oz Centennial @10
.25 oz Cascade @5 min
.5 oz Citra @ flameout
.5 oz Amarillo @ whirlpool

This should all work out to:

OG 1.048
FG 1.010
ABV 5%
IBU 16.7

Wyeast belgian witbier (3944)

I planned on telling the guest to think of a Blue Moon crossed with Sierra Nevada pale ale. Therefore, I am considering going more of the Blue Moon clone route with pale malt instead of pilsner and using a clean ale yeast to better suite this crowd. On the hop flavors pale ale side of things I wanted more orange flavor and don't wont to be too heavy on the Cascade grapefruit.

Maybe some orange peel and/or zest to boost the flavor?
Other thoughts or suggestions?

 

[Yooper]

I would go with more of an American wit than one that uses a Belgian wit strain. If someone is thinking "Blue Moon", the Belgiany wit yeast would be a big surprise. I'm not sure how well the clove-y wit yeast flavors will go will cascade hops, either. A clean strain may give better results for Blue Moon lovers.

 

[normonster]

I'd brew those people a blonde or mild and make 'em happy.

If you do this though, the beer will clear with us05 and not be very witty.

If you want orange aroma, Citra was very orange to me and super strong as a whirlpool addition.

 

[DurtyChemist]

I do a Sorachi Ace SMaSH that isn't hoppy more than it is citrusy. I might switch from using centennial at the beginning to just using citra and calculating IBUs. I just brewed a white IPA using a fair amount of hops but it was 9lbs 2 row, 2 lb Vienna and 1 lb flaked oats. It should come out nice.

 

[rhys333]

I agree with others that its probably a good idea to go with a neutral yeast strain, perhaps even just US05. Half your crowd may react negatively to expressive belgian strains. Even with Blue Moon, I've seen people turn up their noses at the estery yeast flavors. I find low to moderate bittering and generous late hopping citrusy hops in an APA or American wheat is a guaranteed crowd pleaser.

 

[SLFcentralOH]

Good discussion. Thanks for the input everyone. I definitely agree with the direction this is going.

I have plenty of US-05 on hand so thats easy. The worst thing about this is I'm going to lose my white haze I was going for. Or, will I still get some haze with the ~40% flaked wheat? Would wheat malt be a better choice? I could use some flour to get that back but I have to admit I'm not very interested in doing that.

As far as the grist is concerned would anyone be opposed to dropping the pilsner and instead using some 2 row pale that I have sitting around getting old?

I have simplified the hops as follows:

.33 oz Citra @60 min
.66 oz Citra whirlpool
.5 oz Amarillo whirlpool
=16.7 IBU

The slightly higher attenuation of US-05 has this coming in at 5.1%. I wouldn't be opposed to trimming it back a little.

 

[joshesmusica]

Good discussion. Thanks for the input everyone. I definitely agree with the direction this is going.

I have plenty of US-05 on hand so thats easy. The worst thing about this is I'm going to lose my white haze I was going for. Or, will I still get some haze with the ~40% flaked wheat? Would wheat malt be a better choice? I could use some flour to get that back but I have to admit I'm not very interested in doing that.

As far as the grist is concerned would anyone be opposed to dropping the pilsner and instead using some 2 row pale that I have sitting around getting old?

I have simplified the hops as follows:

.33 oz Citra @60 min
.66 oz Citra whirlpool
.5 oz Amarillo whirlpool
=16.7 IBU

The slightly higher attenuation of US-05 has this coming in at 5.1%. I wouldn't be opposed to trimming it back a little.

Yeah, sure, use the pale ale malt. Then if you're going for hazy, use the wheat, but I would just go ahead and use wheat malt, and then a smaller percentage of flaked wheat - around 5-10% should be good there.

I recently did a hoppy witbier, but I did a traditional wit yeast. If you went with a typical american strain, like us-05, yet still added some coriander seeds and some sweet orange peel, you'd be on track for a blue moon. Then go with whatever late hop additions you prefer, and you're on your way to the white pale ale, or hoppy american witbier, that you're going for. Although, I highly recommend going for cascade and some noble type hop in order to get a little more spiciness. But if that's not what your people like, cascade and citra are always a great combo. Or even the amarillo and citra combo is always great.

In which case, I'd do some kind of clean hop for bittering. Then citra and amarillo as a whirlpool/hopstand like you said. Then dry hop with them as well.

 

[12thHoleBrewer]

"I recently did a hoppy witbier, but I did a traditional wit yeast. If you went with a typical american strain, like us-05, yet still added some coriander seeds and some sweet orange peel, you'd be on track for a blue moon. Then go with whatever late hop additions you prefer, and you're on your way to the white pale ale, or hoppy american witbier, that you're going for. Although, I highly recommend going for cascade and some noble type hop in order to get a little more spiciness. But if that's not what your people like, cascade and citra are always a great combo. "

Would you mind posting your recipe for your hoppy wit? I recently tried brewing a White IPA with witbier yeast, coriander and sweet orange peel, along with several ounces of a blend of citrusy hops. Unfortunately the hops masked the phenols from the yeast, the coriander and the orange peel. Not exactly what I was going for.

Backing off on the hops may result in the right mix of flavors and aromas (more of an APA as suggested in the original post.

 

[SLFcentralOH]

It seems these hoppy wheat beers are the trending thing now. The idea for me, and apparently others, came from some commercial examples of white IPA's. Even though Im a IPA kind of guy, I was looking for something to make using this idea that could still appeal to those who don't understand the true potential of hops. It seems many people think of hops only as an undesirable bitterness. I guess you could say I'm on a mission to change that misconception. I realize it will be tough road ahead, but a good challenge never hurt anyone and I won't be a sore loser if I don't succeed. I know I will enjoy what they dont want

Speaking of trending...it also seems adding a little wheat to recipes is also gaining popularity. When I started brewing only about 10 brews/6 months ago I was adding ~10% wheat to all my recipes. The reason for this is the name of my brewery is "Scratch Grains Brewing." I feed my chickens scratch grains, which are a mixture of barley, wheat, and corn. So, you guessed it I tried to include all of those in most of my brews as a "theme."

For most of my brews I dont feel that the addition of a little wheat and corn really did much. However, in my first IPA I really feel like it was a great combination. The corn helped keep things dry to show case the hops, and the wheat seemed to give it something extra that I cant quite explain compared to the many commercial examples I have tried.

Anyway, Im just rambling.

 

[rhys333]

Is Blue Moon brewed with a neutral strain in the US? Here in Canada its branded as Belgian Moon and they definately use a fruity wit/hefe yeast. I agree with others... pale malt will work great, up the wheat malt and lower or even remove the flaked wheat. The oats will add a little creaminess and body which would be nice. The citrusy hops will be great and play nicely off the wheat. I'd be temped to up the IBUs to the mid 20s (but that's just me), and 16 will work nicely too and maybe show a little sweetness from the wheat. It should be pretty cloudy for a while too, so no worries there. Eventually it'll drop clear with cold conditioning, but just about anything will.

 

[joshesmusica]

"I recently did a hoppy witbier, but I did a traditional wit yeast. If you went with a typical american strain, like us-05, yet still added some coriander seeds and some sweet orange peel, you'd be on track for a blue moon. Then go with whatever late hop additions you prefer, and you're on your way to the white pale ale, or hoppy american witbier, that you're going for. Although, I highly recommend going for cascade and some noble type hop in order to get a little more spiciness. But if that's not what your people like, cascade and citra are always a great combo. "

Would you mind posting your recipe for your hoppy wit? I recently tried brewing a White IPA with witbier yeast, coriander and sweet orange peel, along with several ounces of a blend of citrusy hops. Unfortunately the hops masked the phenols from the yeast, the coriander and the orange peel. Not exactly what I was going for.

Backing off on the hops may result in the right mix of flavors and aromas (more of an APA as suggested in the original post.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=7441240#post7441240

 

[12thHoleBrewer]

Thanks for posting the recipe!

 

[SLFcentralOH]

Wanted to give an update of where the recipe stands.

Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Size: 6.90 gal
Boil Time: 60 min
End of Boil Vol: 5.2 gal
Final Bottling Vol: 5 gal

1.047 OG
1.010 FG
5.0% ABV
21.5 IBU

4 lbs 8.0 oz 2-row pale malt 51.4 %
3 lbs Wheat - White Malt 34.3 %
1 lbs Wheat, Flaked 11.4 %
4.0 oz Oats, Flaked 2.9 %

0.25 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 12.7 IBUs
0.50 oz Amarillo [9.20 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 6 3.9 IBUs
0.50 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 7 2.3 IBUs
0.25 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 8 2.5 IBUs
1.00 oz Orange Peel, Sweet (Boil 5.0 mins)
0.50 oz Amarillo [9.20 %] Whirlpool
0.50 oz Citra [12.00 %] Whirlpool

US-05

Is the orange peel too much or even worth it?
Considering coriander but don't want to over do it with this crowd.

 

[joshesmusica]

Orange peel will likely not be noticeable with those hops.