Why are you going to add more honey?
White house beer
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Hellbender1
Active Member
I just brewed the Honey Ale kit from Northern Brewer on Friday also. I substituted locally produced honey that I got at the Farmer's Market for what came in the kit. I had dabbled in homebrewing 10+ years ago but just started back up with this one due to all the chatter about it. I'm excited to get back into brewing! Did you do a kit or put it together yourself?
Welcome back to brewing and HBT!
We had a brew party for this last weekend and its still in the carboy http://www.singingboysbrewing.com/White-House-Honey-Ale.html
Did you really put 3.5# of total honey in there or am I reading this wrong?
1.0000 is not possible unless you have perfect yeast ;p and if you went from 1.074, an SG way higher than the original recipe but considering all that honey understandable, down to 1.0000 or no sugar left in two weeks .... something up with that... What yeast did you use?
1.0000 is not possible unless you have perfect yeast ;p and if you went from 1.074, an SG way higher than the original recipe but considering all that honey understandable, down to 1.0000 or no sugar left in two weeks .... something up with that... What yeast did you use?
Pie_Man
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't worry too much about tannin extraction from boiling the grains for 9 minutes. Beer can be pretty forgiving.
I'd search this forum on weather you want to use a secondary or not, it's been debated hundreds of times. Personally, I think it's a bad idea to use a secondary fermenter on the arbitrary basis of time. Let the yeast, and the beer's gravity determine your decision on whether to use a secondary. You don't want to remove the beer from the yeast too early as you might not have enough yeast to finish fermenting the beer.
To summarize much of the secondary vs. no secondary debate:
Pros of using a secondary - Clears the beer by transferring the beer into another vessel and leaving a lot of the yeast behind.
Cons of using a secondary - Extra equipment to clean, risk of infection during the tranfer process, there are other ways of clearing your beer like cold crashing or just leaving it in the primary for extra time.
I'd search this forum on weather you want to use a secondary or not, it's been debated hundreds of times. Personally, I think it's a bad idea to use a secondary fermenter on the arbitrary basis of time. Let the yeast, and the beer's gravity determine your decision on whether to use a secondary. You don't want to remove the beer from the yeast too early as you might not have enough yeast to finish fermenting the beer.
To summarize much of the secondary vs. no secondary debate:
Pros of using a secondary - Clears the beer by transferring the beer into another vessel and leaving a lot of the yeast behind.
Cons of using a secondary - Extra equipment to clean, risk of infection during the tranfer process, there are other ways of clearing your beer like cold crashing or just leaving it in the primary for extra time.
Hogarthe
Well-Known Member
you added the yeast at 175? or did you mean 75? 175 would probably kill most if not all the yeast. 75 is on the warm side, but doable, if you can further cool it after pitching, which it sounds like you weren't able to. Fermenting at that temp probably will give you some off flavors. only time will tell if it will be completely ruined or not though. I don't secondary any more, but that is just me, other people do it all the time. whether you leave it in primary, secondary or in the bottles, I usually find giving the beer some extra aging time will help. especially if the temps get away from you. I made a porter where the temps got too high and the beer had a hot alcohol taste when I bottled it. I left it for about 6 months and now it tastes much better. I think your batch will most likely benefit from the same...
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Pie_Man
Well-Known Member
Just reread this and you might have a problem. Did you add the yeast when the wort was 175 degrees? If so, that would kill the yeast and thus you wouldn't have any viable yeast for fermentation. Anything above 120 is a yeast killer. Pitch means to add the yeast to the wort. Did your kit come with a hydrometer? This is used to measure the amount of sugar is solution of the beer. Ideally, you take a gravity reading prior to adding yeast, then you can take subsequent gravity readings to judge fermenation. As the yeast consume the sugar in the beer, alchohol is made and the gravity decreases.
Now to discuss fermentation temperatures. The temperature the beer ferments at is very important, and it's the temperature of the liquid not the ambient air temperature that matters. As the brewer, you make wort, the yeast make the wort into beer. It's your job to make a good tasty wort and keep the yeast happy (temperature, aeration, amount of yeast pitched). I'd suggest searching this forum for "swamp cooler" and use this method to better control fermentation temperature. A temperature controlled fridge or freezer works very well too.
freisste
Well-Known Member
lawman67 said:
The immediate bubbles were your yeast screaming in pain. I'm too new to know the effects of overheating yeast very well. I'm sure at some point, you kill the yeast. Don't worry (until someone else tells you to), I'm not saying your yeast is dead, I'm saying I don't know if it is dead. You will likely have some off flavors because the yeast was too hot.
Questions:
1 - You said it didn't get down to 78 for three days. How hot was it before that? Any idea how long it was above 100?
2 - You say things settled down after 2 days. What do you mean settled down? Stopped bubbling? Is that 2 days after it got down to 78 or two days after brewing?
Hopefully it bubbled after cooling down. Pretty much a guarantee that the yeast isn't dead. After that, I think you should be alright. Likely some extra or missing flavors from some problems with technique, but all learning experiences.
From what I'm seeing, the only thing that appears would be a MAJOR problem would be if you really pitched yeast at 175 (as indicated above, that'd kill your yeast). Given that it you indicated it fermented, I'm assuming that was a typo and you meant 75.
There are some potentials for off-flavors in this beer. As you were aware, there's the potential for tannins. So the beer might have a little astringency. Your fermentation temp was definitely warm, so it may be a little too fruity, perhaps a little hot or solventy. Those things will often mellow with time. In the future, you were on the right track with the sink and water. Many of us use "swamp coolers" as cheap and easy temperature control. Were you reading the temperature of the beer itself, or the ambient air? Fermentation creates heat, and the beer can be as 10 degrees higher than the air around it (I had a beer long ago reach 15 degrees higher than ambient) during active fermentation. Water conducts heat better than air, and will help mitigate that.
Two days isn't unreasonable for active fermentation, especially at those temperatures which will cause it to ferment faster. Most of my beers femrented in the mid 60's are done with active fermentation in 3-4 days. Secondary is up for debate (I only do it under certain circumstances, and this beer wouldn't be one of them), but you should definitely allow some extra time after fermentation for yeast to clean up all the byproducts they create during fermentation before you consider transferring to secondary or bottling. Many folks on this site will leave a beer in primary (with no secondary) for 3-4 weeks before bottling/kegging.
However, odds are you still made beer, and it should still be drinkable.
There are some potentials for off-flavors in this beer. As you were aware, there's the potential for tannins. So the beer might have a little astringency. Your fermentation temp was definitely warm, so it may be a little too fruity, perhaps a little hot or solventy. Those things will often mellow with time. In the future, you were on the right track with the sink and water. Many of us use "swamp coolers" as cheap and easy temperature control. Were you reading the temperature of the beer itself, or the ambient air? Fermentation creates heat, and the beer can be as 10 degrees higher than the air around it (I had a beer long ago reach 15 degrees higher than ambient) during active fermentation. Water conducts heat better than air, and will help mitigate that.
Two days isn't unreasonable for active fermentation, especially at those temperatures which will cause it to ferment faster. Most of my beers femrented in the mid 60's are done with active fermentation in 3-4 days. Secondary is up for debate (I only do it under certain circumstances, and this beer wouldn't be one of them), but you should definitely allow some extra time after fermentation for yeast to clean up all the byproducts they create during fermentation before you consider transferring to secondary or bottling. Many folks on this site will leave a beer in primary (with no secondary) for 3-4 weeks before bottling/kegging.
However, odds are you still made beer, and it should still be drinkable.
superfknmario
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Hellbender1 said:
I got the recipe from my local home brew shop. The recipe says to add honey after 7 days(in response to another post). I used local orange blossom honey
Adding honey after fermentation is complete is a common practice for many brewers on here. It'll preserve the most flavor and aroma. I've always added it after flame-out (no boiling), allowing it a little bit between 180 and 200 degrees to pasteurize it.
I'm curious what you mean by "more" honey. Did you split the honey, adding some on brewday and some later? Are you adding additional honey? Or is this the only honey addition?
A friend and I brewed an all-grain adaptation of the Honey Ale a couple weeks ago. We'll be bottling in about 2 weeks. It's at his house, so I haven't gotten a chance to taste it yet. We were trying to keep as true to [the intent of] the original recipe as we could. Given that I live right across the river from the District, I was able to source some honey from hives less than a mile from the White House, so hopefully we're pretty close.
I'm curious what you mean by "more" honey. Did you split the honey, adding some on brewday and some later? Are you adding additional honey? Or is this the only honey addition?
A friend and I brewed an all-grain adaptation of the Honey Ale a couple weeks ago. We'll be bottling in about 2 weeks. It's at his house, so I haven't gotten a chance to taste it yet. We were trying to keep as true to [the intent of] the original recipe as we could. Given that I live right across the river from the District, I was able to source some honey from hives less than a mile from the White House, so hopefully we're pretty close.
No, you're reading it right. 3.5# of honey.Dont know why, it just seemed ..... Good. Anyways, I used a yeast cake from my previous beer (prior to blueberries) made from safale us 05. I made two starters from it and pitched both.
Now, before Revvy shows up and slaps me with some NOOB knowledge, I took another reading, and it was still at 1.000. The airlock has started to bubble on the secondary, but I don't want to let it just go to town and run the risk of autolysis. I am more than willing to admit that my initial reading was wrong.
Now, before Revvy shows up and slaps me with some NOOB knowledge, I took another reading, and it was still at 1.000. The airlock has started to bubble on the secondary, but I don't want to let it just go to town and run the risk of autolysis. I am more than willing to admit that my initial reading was wrong.
The only thing I'm thinking that could drop it THAT low is an infection (even 3711 won't go that low in my experience, even if it gets close), but I'd think it'd need longer than 2 weeks for an infection to drop it that far. I'd expect all that honey to dry the beer out a bit, maybe even make it a little vinous/cidery, but I don't think it'd do that much. My guess is that something's wrong with your hydrometer or it's user error.
superfknmario
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I added about one lb of honey @ 10 minutes to cool down. I'm adding another 1 lb on Wednesday
superfknmario
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And yeah, I figured I'd go with a local twist since the recipe uses local honey. The honey I used is from a local apiary.
Big TYPO on my part! I could probably qualify for a job in the White House kitchen. My bad notes for sure, it was not 175 when I put the yeast in. Thank you guys for the catch on that. The recipe called for pitching when the wort was between 70-80 degrees, which I tried for the middle at 75 degrees. By evening, it was up to 78 (not 178) and just didn't seem to want to go down even with a 66 degree ambient temp in the basement. My primary has the adhesive strip thermometer stuck on the outside, so I'm trusting it to reasonably estimate the beer temp. I use a seperate digital thermometer for the ambient.
I'll be more aware on the next batch and get cooled a few more degrees to the bottom of the range before pitching. I've read quite a few posts that indicate this is not uncommon and it's good to know how to solve for it.
This one may be on the shelf for awhile and I'll just keep making notes to learn from.
I'll be more aware on the next batch and get cooled a few more degrees to the bottom of the range before pitching. I've read quite a few posts that indicate this is not uncommon and it's good to know how to solve for it.
This one may be on the shelf for awhile and I'll just keep making notes to learn from.
It was at 75 degrees when I pitched the yeast and by that same evening, the temp was up to 78 degrees (not the 68-72 I was looking for). The beer stayed at 78 degrees for 3 days in the basement where the room was at 66 degrees.
The bubbling settled down after 2 days instead of every couple of minutes to a couple of times per hour. I did not notice any bubbles during days 4 through 7.
Thank you for the help. I decided to go with the secondary so I can free up the primary for a Vienna Lager kit that is on deck. I decided to taste it while transferring and it tastes like beer, though it has an alcohol bite to it for sure. This forum has been awesome for digging into and shortening the learning curve on the fundamentals.
rhinoceroceros
Well-Known Member
If you haven't checked the gravity I would advise against doing anything with it, especially if you haven't seen much activity. You should see a lot of action in the first 48 hours, if you didn't see much I would be concerned that you haven't achieved much fermentation. If you didn't get an OG it'll be hard to tell if the yeast have done anything. But 75 degrees should have been a safe temperature to pitch. My advice is to check the gravity against what the recipe says the FG should be and if it's too high let it sit in primary a bit longer and RDWHAH
A Top Beer Sommelier Assesses Obama's Home-Brew Recipe
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-09-04/a-top-beer-sommelier-assesses-obamas-homebrew-recipe
White House Beer: A Brewer Weighs In
http://dinersjournal.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/03/white-house-beer-a-brewer-weighs-in/
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-09-04/a-top-beer-sommelier-assesses-obamas-homebrew-recipe
White House Beer: A Brewer Weighs In
http://dinersjournal.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/03/white-house-beer-a-brewer-weighs-in/
WHITE HOUSE
HONEY ALE
3 1/2 gallons chilled, sterile water, plus more to fill fermenter
2 (3.3 pounds each) cans light malt extract
1 pound light dried malt extract
12 ounces crushed amber crystal malt
8 ounces Biscuit Malt
1 pound good-quality honey
1 1/2 ounces Kent Goldings Hop Pellets
1 1/2 ounces Fuggles Hop pellets
2 teaspoons gypsum
1 package Windsor dry ale yeast
3/4 cup corn sugar for priming
In an 12-quart pot, steep the amber crystal and Biscuit malts in a hop bag in 1 1/2 gallons of sterile water at 155 degrees for half an hour. Remove the grains.
Add the 2 cans of the malt extract and the dried extract and bring to a boil.
For the first flavoring, add the Kent Goldings and gypsum. Boil for 45 minutes.
For the second flavoring, add the Fuggles hop pellets at the last minute of the boil. Add the honey and boil for 5 more minutes.
Add 2 gallons chilled, sterile water into the primary fermenter and add the hot wort into it. Top with more water to total 5 gallons. There is no need to strain.
Pitch yeast when wort temperature is between 70-80 degrees. Fill air lock halfway with water.
Ferment at 68-72 degrees for about seven days.
Rack to a secondary fermenter after five days and ferment for 14 more days.
To bottle, dissolve the corn sugar into 2 pints of boiling water for 15 minutes. Pour the mixture into an empty bottling bucket. Siphon the beer from the fermenter over it. Distribute priming sugar evenly. Siphon into bottles and cap. Let sit for 2 to 3 weeks at 75 degrees.
HONEY ALE
3 1/2 gallons chilled, sterile water, plus more to fill fermenter
2 (3.3 pounds each) cans light malt extract
1 pound light dried malt extract
12 ounces crushed amber crystal malt
8 ounces Biscuit Malt
1 pound good-quality honey
1 1/2 ounces Kent Goldings Hop Pellets
1 1/2 ounces Fuggles Hop pellets
2 teaspoons gypsum
1 package Windsor dry ale yeast
3/4 cup corn sugar for priming
In an 12-quart pot, steep the amber crystal and Biscuit malts in a hop bag in 1 1/2 gallons of sterile water at 155 degrees for half an hour. Remove the grains.
Add the 2 cans of the malt extract and the dried extract and bring to a boil.
For the first flavoring, add the Kent Goldings and gypsum. Boil for 45 minutes.
For the second flavoring, add the Fuggles hop pellets at the last minute of the boil. Add the honey and boil for 5 more minutes.
Add 2 gallons chilled, sterile water into the primary fermenter and add the hot wort into it. Top with more water to total 5 gallons. There is no need to strain.
Pitch yeast when wort temperature is between 70-80 degrees. Fill air lock halfway with water.
Ferment at 68-72 degrees for about seven days.
Rack to a secondary fermenter after five days and ferment for 14 more days.
To bottle, dissolve the corn sugar into 2 pints of boiling water for 15 minutes. Pour the mixture into an empty bottling bucket. Siphon the beer from the fermenter over it. Distribute priming sugar evenly. Siphon into bottles and cap. Let sit for 2 to 3 weeks at 75 degrees.
lordmorphous
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Just an update on my fermentation. It was so strong that i had to rig up a makeshift blow off tube setup. It stayed at that rate for over 36 hours. Strongest fermentation I've had yet. Oh, is smelling wonderful!
That makes sense, its different than the recipe, but I'm sure it will increase the honey character of the beer. From the recipe (and not tasting it, which I've not done), I suspect the original White House version is probably very English pale ale in character, with little honey character to it.
I'm not as I just did the recipe and added 1lb. of raw honey (Northern forgot my honey) at 5min and it and the honey smell was awesome in it. I think it would be much more prevalent as the hops used in the recipe are quite tame in comparison.
There was a lot of activity at first, even showing up in the airlock. I'm finding a published OG of 1.072 with some of the packaged kits, which match my ingredients. I did put a hydrometer in yesterday and the FG is showing 1.024 with a beer temp of 72 degrees. I'm not sure if the FG is "high" but it seems like it might be in the neighborhood of what I'd be looking for. The abv calculator I referenced indicates 6.25% abv. It almost sounds like I might have made beer!
I'd leave it in the primary for another two weeks.
The 78 degree temps are just a bit on the high side for the yeast. It won't ruin your beer, but might generate a few ester flavors. If you leave the beer alone in the fermenter for an extra week or so, the yeast will convert some of the undesired flavors into better things. As the yeast move to the stationary phase and flocculate out, many good things happen in your beer. You won't see any airlock activity, and your gravity readings might not change much, but there is some change taking place.
At 1.024, you still have some primary fermentation left. In a couple days that will drop about another 10 points.
Just leave it for a couple weeks before bottling. Patience is key (and very, very hard).
The 78 degree temps are just a bit on the high side for the yeast. It won't ruin your beer, but might generate a few ester flavors. If you leave the beer alone in the fermenter for an extra week or so, the yeast will convert some of the undesired flavors into better things. As the yeast move to the stationary phase and flocculate out, many good things happen in your beer. You won't see any airlock activity, and your gravity readings might not change much, but there is some change taking place.
At 1.024, you still have some primary fermentation left. In a couple days that will drop about another 10 points.
Just leave it for a couple weeks before bottling. Patience is key (and very, very hard).
rhinoceroceros
Well-Known Member
lawman67 said:
It sounds like you did make beer but 1.024 does sound a bit high, just let it sit. This is probably the hardest part of making beer but good things come to those who wait
I will let it sit...It's tough, but it will sit. I'll devote some time to reading some more posts and learning what I can for a future batch. Maybe I'll check the FG this weekend and see if it drops at all.
BamaRooster
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hahahaha
jeremy0209
Well-Known Member
brewed this up 2 weeks and 2 days ago. Currently sitting in secondary at 1.016...it's supposed to finish at 1.012, but I mashed at 154F. 1.016 may be all I get out of the Notty. Sample is excellent. Going to let it in secondary another week and a half then bottle. Should be drinking by the end of the month. 
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