Which of these ruined my batch?

[RPh_Guy]

I am not an expert on all types of infections and what sanitizers can rid them

This is my specialty, and of particular importance to me because I frequently use Brettanomyces, Pediococcus, Lactobacillus, and every other wild microbe under the sun in my brews.

Once you appropriately remove all residue from your equipment with a good cleaning process, pretty much any sanitizer will kill all problematic organisms. Star San, Iodophor, Bleach + vinegar (at no-rinse concentration), and 70% ethanol are all good options.

You should not "soak" in Star San or any other sanitizer. They work within 1-2 minutes.

On the other hand if you don't remove residue with proper cleaning, then none of the sanitizers will work.

Heat is good for sanitizing but since hot water doesn't remove residue, there may still be issues with future batches.
Replacing cheap plastics is definitely a good option for someone having recurring contaminations.

Cheers

 

[CascadesBrewer]

This is my specialty, and of particular importance to me because I frequently use Brettanomyces, Pediococcus, Lactobacillus, and every other wild microbe under the sun in my brews.

Ahh...my guy to ask in the future!

I guess I have read info that Star San is not that effective at killing wild yeasts and mold...that Iodophor is better at that and there seems to be debate if Bleach is effective. There is also a quote in "How to Brew" about Iodophor that says "Soaking equipment for longer, for 10 minutes at the same concentration of 12.5 ppm will disinfect surfaces to hospital standards."

Plus a nice long soak in a 25 ppm Iodophor sanitizer will give all your plastics a brown stain..err...lovely golden hue.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I guess I have read info that Star San is not that effective at killing wild yeasts and mold

Star San is more than adequate.
This MTF wiki article touches on the scientific evidence and debunks the myth:
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Quality_Assurance#Homebrew_cleaners_and_disinfectants
There is also an unpublished study from a biologist on MTF that shows Star San is effective at killing both yeast and bacteria.

I use Star San because I like that it has a very long shelf life and short required contact time.

Spores:
Mold should never be a problem for brewers because it requires lots of oxygen to grow.
Anecdotally, I've made at least a dozen wild batches and wild yeast cultures that I'm sure had mold spores and none of the ones I protected from oxygen ever grew mold.
If mold is ever a problem, you need to fix your process.

Sporulating bacteria are also generally not a problem (fortunately) because they rarely contaminate beer.

Sporulating yeast have never been documented to cause a contamination.

there seems to be debate if Bleach is effective

There is debate? Slightly acidified bleach is capable of rapidly achieving sterilization. Vinegar drops the pH slightly, enough to drastically increase the concentration of the active anti-microbial hypochlorous acid.

Edit to clarify: it is extremely effective as a sanitizer, not as a cleaner.

Iodophor that says "Soaking equipment for longer, for 10 minutes at the same concentration of 12.5 ppm will disinfect surfaces to hospital standards."

Iodophor is indeed highly effective, but it does take a bit longer to sanitize at the lower concentration. I would probably stick to 25ppm.

 

[Tim H]

This thread just makes me think of the sour patch commercials where the little candies ruin everything....even your beer.

 

[WesBrew]

-I would not toss water bottles in the to help cool the wort.
-make a tub of warm water with some bleach and soak all tubes & siphons overnight. anything the wort goes through. rinse
-fill the carboy up to top and do the same. soak overnight, then rinse,
-sanitise all when its time to brew. I would make a tub of sanitizer and wipe thoroughly all over equipment with clean sponge (not just spray it). and submerge all tubes/siphons in that tub of sanitizer just prior to brew.

 

[balrog]

Since you moved to OR.
How's your water source, compared to MO water? Chlorine for instance.

 

[eric19312]

I don't think he is tossing in bottles, he is pouring in cool top up water. That practice especially as described, is fine.

You mention this is happening in another batch. So you previously had an infection and didn't manage to get rid of it. I suspect that blow off hose you are describing. If the krausen climbed up the neck, into the hose, and then fell back into the beer...

But regardless of what I or others suspect a batch is too valuable to risk this happening again. Replace everything plastic that touched the previous batches. Autosiphon, bottling wand, stopper, airlock, blow off hose, racking hose, plastic spoon. Next batch make sure to clean and sanitize everthing that might come in contact with the cooled beer. Try not to let things that don't absolutely need to contact the beer come into contact. Don't put your hydrometer into the carboy. Don't take samples out of the fermentor until the beer is just about done.

One more thought...Check that immersion chiller for leaks. I have seen them leaking at the hose connection and dripping unsanitary water into your cooling wort.

 

[brewbama]

Star San is more than adequate.
This MTF wiki article touches on the scientific evidence and debunks the myth:
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Quality_Assurance#Homebrew_cleaners_and_disinfectants
There is also an unpublished study from a biologist on MTF that shows Star San is effective at killing both yeast and bacteria.

I use Star San because I like that it has a very long shelf life and short required contact time.

Spores:
Mold should never be a problem for brewers because it requires lots of oxygen to grow.
Anecdotally, I've made at least a dozen wild batches and wild yeast cultures that I'm sure had mold spores and none of the ones I protected from oxygen ever grew mold.
If mold is ever a problem, you need to fix your process.

Sporulating bacteria are also generally not a problem (fortunately) because they rarely contaminate beer.

Sporulating yeast have never been documented to cause a contamination.

There is debate? Slightly acidified bleach is capable of rapidly achieving sterilization. Vinegar drops the pH slightly, enough to drastically increase the concentration of the active anti-microbial hypochlorous acid.

Edit to clarify: it is extremely effective as a sanitizer, not as a cleaner.

Iodophor is indeed highly effective, but it does take a bit longer to sanitize at the lower concentration. I would probably stick to 25ppm.

The only problem with Star San is the foam. I use Iodophor because it’s low foam.

 

[Bubbles2]

When I bottled. The bottles were cleaned way before bottling day. Example would be a used bottle was rinsed and then submerged into a bucket (see you might be a brewer thread) that is in my kitchen charged with Oxyclean. When bucket was full, I would use bottle brush to wash and then rinse WELL hot water. Drip dry.
Bottling day, Star San 5 gal bucket 1oz to 5gal water, (takes about 3 gallons to cover a full bucket of bottles. Star San loses it's effectiveness when it dries. So you want to pull bottles as you are ready to fill them.
EG., Bottles submerged, next to dishwasher open, rack extended and of course clean and sprayed with Star San, reach in grab 12 pack out of Star san empty into bucket they are in and then hang em on dishwasher rack prongs. While they drip, reload bucket as above. Fill those 12-20 that are not dry and still foamy. Cap Repeat. Those are clean bottles.
Your OCD on bringing down the temp is not worth the rub. Yes bringing down the temp helps with proteins and having a clearer beer...However you will never have a perfectly clean beer if you are bottle carbing. There will always be TRUB So you can skip the cooler. Just cover the top of your kettle and if you have a bathtub if your kitchen sink is not large enough to accommodate your kettle. Fill with cool water and set it in there for an hour. Yes you can refrigerate your back fill water too. That water does not have to be boiled. IF the yeast cannot handle clean water as we would it is not worth buying. The cultured or hot rod yeast should plow through any wild yeasts (within reason) 180ºf is the number for pasteurization so logic would dictate that is the sanitation degree not 140 your dishwasher get to. OR you could pasteurize at 140....Louie.
I found a Big Mouth Bubbler that is 6.5 gal works great for fermenting. A secondary is only needed for long haul (longer than 30 day fermentation or Lagering) Stop that. Only another opportunity to oxygenate and or contaminate. 40 batches and no infections thus far and only one crappy batch, the 1st one where I transferred into a secondary due to antiquated instructions making a chocolate stout. Almost the same ingredients you used. LOL
Your Yeast will determine sourness as well, Stressed Yeast that is pitched say 10º over or under what it is at or being hydrated at will stress it. Too hot of a fermentation or erratic temps hot day cold night.
Sour makes me think your yeast. IF all bottles are sour as well as Oxygenated like a green apple

 

[bleme]

No, I did taste it after primary, and it tasted fine! But I did not taste it before bottling. Should have. Definitely will start now.

If it tasted fine after primary, then the problem is probably after primary as well.
Have you taken apart the tip of your bottling wand yet? That's the most likely culprit.

 

[RPh_Guy]

180ºf is the number for pasteurization so logic would dictate that is the sanitation degree not 140 your dishwasher get to. OR you could pasteurize at 140....Louie.

140°C (60°C) is the minimum pasteurization temperature.

 

[Bubbles2]

140°C (60°C) is the minimum pasteurization temperature.

you meant F for the 140º probably....However most pasteurization is called out at 180ºf in my books in cooking

 

[RPh_Guy]

you meant F for the 140º probably....However most pasteurization is called out at 180ºf in my books in cooking

Yes, 140°F.

Your cooking books are inaccurate.

 

[InspectorJon]

I rinse my bottles very well with hot tap water immediately after pouring a beer and let them drain upside down until dry. I store them upside down. On bottling day I put them upside down in the dishwasher on the "sanitize" cycle and bottle right into those bottles. I read this in another thread here so others do it successfully. I have been doing this for a long time with no issues.

The dishwasher is a pretty good but not top of the line appliance with a stainless steel interior. It has a sanitize setting so I assume that is hotter than the normal hot temperature. I have not tested the temperature but it is hot enough to burn my hand if I open the machine immediately after the cycle ends. I run the dishwasher empty through a rinse cycle before putting the bottles in to get rid of any stray particles that may be in the machine.

 

[eric19312]

When I bottled my process was to rinse bottles well after drinking and dry on bottling tree. On bottling day I put one gallon mixed starsan in a 5 gallon bucket with a vinerator. Each bottle got 2 squirts starsan about 2-5 min before filled. Let what drains out right away drain out rest becomes part of the beer.

This worked fine and I had no bottle infections.

 

[tellyho]

Huh, never had a contaminated batch, but I don't bottle much anymore.

After drinking, I wash bottles with my dishes (dish soap - I know, not the best). They get stored in my dusty-ass basement.

On bottling day, they get soaked in a bucket of star San, then upside down in my dishwasher to wait for fill.

All bottling equipment gets a dip in the star San.

All in all, I'd say I'm on the casual side of sterilization and have never had a problem. I think a piece of your equipment is contaminated. I'd replace autosiphon, hose and bottling wand. Probably bottling bucket and spigot as well, if you really want to be sure.

 

[eric19312]

I’d suspect faulty bottle sanitation if some bottles were infected but others were not. If the whole batch is infected then it occurred before the beer got to the bottles.

 

[Vintage Iron]

After working through an infection here, I just realized that this piece comes off the bottom of the inner racking cane. I've used this for at least 10 batches without ever removing it! "Maybe" it gets cleaned without taking it apart, but it will always be taken down from here on out. You'll want to make sure you're removing this piece when cleaning/sanitizing.

On a related note, I believe the infection we had here was due to using an old package of (wet) yeast. I tend to be a germ-a-phobe by nature, so my usual cleaning/sanitizing routine tends to be pretty thorough. Regarding my batch that got infected...two days after pitching the bad yeast, nothing was happening and I probably should have pitched that extra pack of SO-5 I keep in the fridge, but didn't. Finally, fermentation began but I think it was a wild yeast that took over. Not only was that batch ruined, but the next batch was also ruined because I used the same fermenter. Even though I used Star San (mixed slightly over strength) it didn't kill off whatever was in my plastic big mouth fermenter. After a lot of research, I found this:

So over Thanksgiving break, I went through everything with a bleach soak as mentioned above. Now two batches have been brewed and all is well. I would highly recommend you give all of your plastic gear the bleach/campden treatment to mitigate any future infections/wild yeast. Whatever you do, do NOT allow any bleach solution to get mixed with star-san. It will create nasty fumes. (acid vs. base)

Keep in mind that sanitizer, whether star san or bleach, is only as good as your initial cleaning routine. Any particulates that get caught in your equipment will be a spot that doesn't get sanitized. It is important that things are clean and debris free before you sanitize. Good luck!

 

[RPh_Guy]

After a lot of research, I found this:

This screenshot is all nonsense.

Acidic sanitizers like Star San and Iodophor ARE effective against both yeast and bacteria.

The process he describes is not using bleach as a sanitizer. A sanitizer is applied immediately before use, and not rinsed.
What he's actually doing is attempting to use it as a cleanser, but bleach is NOT an effective cleanser because it does not remove or penetrate biofilms.

Keep in mind that sanitizer, whether star san or bleach, is only as good as your initial cleaning routine. Any particulates that get caught in your equipment will be a spot that doesn't get sanitized. It is important that things are clean and debris free before you sanitize.

Yes, this.

This is what I recommend:

• Water rinse immediately after use.
• Take things apart.
• Soak in hot PBW (removes organic matter).
• Water rinse.
• Acid rinse (removes inorganic matter).
• Water rinse.
• Dry.
• Store.
• Sanitize before and after assembling, immediately before use. Don't rinse.

 

[Vintage Iron]

This screenshot is all nonsense.

Acidic sanitizers like Star San and Iodophor ARE effective against both yeast and bacteria.

Come on, it was on the internet, it HAS to be true! LOL . All kidding aside, I'm glad you chimed in on this. I'm a relative newbie to brewing (1.5 years) and have learned a TON by reading your posts on this forum, so I appreciate your insight. The "acid vs base" sanitizer discussion and it's interaction with yeast is something I will need to research further. I can say that this process did end my infection situation. Whether that was just a matter of chance or because of the bleach (base) soak is beyond me.

At the risk of getting off topic, can you clarify what you mean by an "Acid Rinse" in this 9-step process? I do all of these with the exception of that particular step, so I'm curious:

This is what I recommend:

• Water rinse immediately after use.
• Take things apart.
• Soak in hot PBW (removes organic matter).
• Water rinse.
• Acid rinse (removes inorganic matter).
• Water rinse.
• Dry.
• Store.
• Sanitize before and after assembling, immediately before use. Don't rinse.

 

[RPh_Guy]

The "acid vs base" sanitizer discussion and it's interaction with yeast is something I will need to research further.

Milk The Funk presents scientific information to debunk myths about Star San
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Quality_Assurance#Homebrew_cleaners_and_disinfectants

It's possible the bleach helped, but it's not needed and it's not as effective as other standard options.

For what it's worth, I also use one set of plastic equipment for all manner of wild microbes and also clean beers, so I want a very thorough cleaning and sanitation procedure.

can you clarify what you mean by an "Acid Rinse" in this 9-step process?

Rinsing with an acid removes inorganic residue. This make it so microbes can't as easily stick to the surface and it allows sanitizers to work more effectively.

This product is good:
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/dairyland-sterosol-milkstone-remover-acid-rinse
It's phosphoric acid with a surfactant.

Citric acid is another option. 1Tbsp per gallon.

Just rinse your equipment with it in warm or room temp water, for maybe 5-20 minutes. It visibility reduces scaling left behind by the alkaline cleanser.

Cheers

 

[ESBrewer]

Avoid oxygen post fermentation (in the head space, possible leaks and so) and try to keep things covered and sanitized. The bottled water should be boiled. Those water jugs always have some microbes and if you are unlucky those bacteria/yeast may spoil it. But boiling it should kill all harmful things. Change the bottling wand and hoses (silicone tubing is handy cause you can boil it or even put it in the oven @170C to sanitize if it is made of high quality material). When bottling, adding a small amount (a few drops) of fresh yeast slurry to the bottles/beer can help with quality of the product and the speed of carbonation.

 

[ncbrewer]

This product is good:
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/dairyland-sterosol-milkstone-remover-acid-rinse
It's phosphoric acid with a surfactant.

This looks similar to Star San - would it work?

 

[RPh_Guy]

This looks similar to Star San - would it work?

Would Star San work as the acid rinse? I don't see why not, but it has a smaller percentage of phosphoric acid and other inactive ingredients, so it's not ideal.

 

[iancl]

Adding the bottled water without boiling and cooling could be the issue. Having a stale sour wet cardboard taste and smell may be a result of oxidation on the hot side, that gets bound up and not available to the yeast, but frees up post fermentation, creating that yucky taste after a few weeks. Look up “Hot side aeration”. Interesting stuff.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Having a stale sour wet cardboard taste and smell may be a result of oxidation on the hot side, that gets bound up and not available to the yeast, but frees up post fermentation, creating that yucky taste after a few weeks.

This is totally inaccurate.

 

[Froyd]

SECONDARY (1 week)
(Racked to 2ndary carboy after 4 days due to blowoff hose leak)

Just a thought, but maybe the rushed transfer left too much yeast behind to finish fermentation without creating off-flavors? Still, that would not explain your other ruined batches.

Somebody mentioned dark grains before. I'd keep an eye on the percentages those play in the total grain bill. I went too heavy on chocolate on a Porter and it tasted like cooked prunes...but definitely not acidic.

 

[bkboiler]

How much stronger do you mix your star-san than the recommended ratio? That's what jumped out to me first when reading your original post.

Also, I did read this entire thread and there's very good content here (and I'm glad it sounds like your infection has gone away! )