Which has more effect on efficiency? Crush, or Sparge?

[Kaiser]

I entered all of my grains in the upper portion, omitting the brown sugar, which is my next question. How do you enter sugar? Just give it 100% extract potential?

Sugar is not supported well. If all your measurements are before the addition of the sugar, you are fine and the result is truly what you got from the mash. Sugar will matter for the fermenter gravity

This is the result I got and if your numbers are correct, you are a prime example why I think just looking at efficiency is not enough. Your efficiency is 60% and based on rather loudly touted wisdom, this means that your should not have a problem with oversparging. But you got 60% b/c you converted only 66% of the starch. Then you did a really good job sparging (~90% lauter efficiency). The latter is what generally causes oversparging.

You should look at why your mash converted so poorly. If you can get the conversion efficiency into the 90s, you can back-off on sparging and still get an efficiency in the upper 70s and maybe even low 80s.

Kai

 

[The Pol]

Sugar is not supported well. If all your measurements are before the addition of the sugar, you are fine and the result is truly what you got from the mash. Sugar will matter for the fermenter gravity

This is the result I got and if your numbers are correct, you are a prime example why I think just looking at efficiency is not enough. Your efficiency is 60% and based on rather loudly touted wisdom, this means that your should not have a problem with oversparging. But you got 60% b/c you converted only 66% of the starch. Then you did a really good job sparging (~90% lauter efficiency). The latter is what generally causes oversparging.

You should look at why your mash converted so poorly. If you can get the conversion efficiency into the 90s, you can back-off on sparging and still get an efficiency in the upper 70s and maybe even low 80s.

Kai

This is what I have been trying to tell people all along Kai... lower eff. doesnt mean you arent oversparging. The argument that high eff. creates lesser quality wort is just silly because of this right here. In this case, converting 66% of the sugars and then sparging the hell out of the grain bed would lead to lower quality wort. Though, dont tell that to the masses.

 

[sparkyaber]

Kai, Pol, thanks for looking into that for me. That is really cool. I know you don't have to and I really appreciate it. I am currently at my mothers hunting, and will be home on Tuesday. I will mess with the calculator more then. As for the over sparging, I assumed I would have since I did sparge with more water to try to grab every last bit of sugar from the grain.

I guess that the problem was with the crush in the first place. I did buy that kit again, and made sure it was double crushed. I do plan on brewing it this week. I will post photos of the grain here.

As for the extra sugars in the boil kettle, how would I compare the OG into the fermenter, and the gravity out of the mash tun?

When I get home I will sit down and get some more questions for you guys.

Thanks a ton!

 

[The Pol]

Only recently have I been REALLY looking into my eff. #'s. Mainly because I am tired of blanket statements being made that high eff. means lower quality wort.

Kai has an excellent tool there to use, and it will allow you to really KNOW what yor are doing when you mash. Like he said, if you can get nearly 100% conversion eff. you can back WAY OFF on the sparge and STILL have 80% eff.

I am trying to get my lauter eff. down to about 80% instead of the 91% currently. I am simply mashing thinner to reduce my sparge water volume... I am down to about 3 gallons of sparge water now for a pre-boil volume of 7.8 gallons!

 

[Malticulous]

I tried lowering my efficiency and really could not tell a difference in beer quality. I've made some excellent beer at 90% efficiency. The only way I managed lower than 82% was by topping off.

 

[The Pol]

I am really only looking at this for two reasons. I am bored and I want to KNOW what is going on in there... and I am going to 100% lager brewing, so I want to create the highest quality wort I can since I dont have the ability to cover flaws.

Now that I know I am sparging 90% efficiently, I see that I can do something to reduce this. I also know that I am converting nearly 100% of my sugars, so I have plenty of room to reduce my sparge volume and there is no need to work on the mash regime anymore.

I will record my lauter eff. losses as I increase my mash volume and reduce my sparge volumes until I feel it is reasonable (80%) ish

 

[Yuri_Rage]

I tried lowering my efficiency and really could not tell a difference in beer quality. I've made some excellent beer at 90% efficiency. The only way I managed lower than 82% was by topping off.

Have you compared conversion efficiency and lauter efficiency? Kai has some great tools on his website to quantify efficiency throughout the brewing process, as well as some interesting articles to read in order to make sense of it all.

http://braukaiser.com

 

[Malticulous]

Yes my conversion close to 100%. When I hit 90% BHE it's from 90 minute boils or very small grain bills. I use his chart. I've never filled out the spreadsheet.

 

[The Pol]

I am doing 90 minute boils, but my sparge volumes are getting quite small.

 

[bakins]

Like he said, if you can get nearly 100% conversion eff. you can back WAY OFF on the sparge and STILL have 80% eff.

That's what I do when I no-sparge BIAB. High 90'% conversion and no sparge gets you to just under 80% into the kettle. And no worries about over-sparging, etc.

 

[sparkyaber]

WOW, I posted here to find out why my efficiency was bad on this batch and this topic has turned into a monster.

I did change the spreadsheet numbers to include the 80% and the 0% and everything worked out. Now you folks are getting way over my head, but I will try to keep up. I don't understand why you would want lower efficiency, and less sparging. I will be looking into those questions, as soon as I get done here.
If you all have links easily accessible, shoot them to me.
Thanks again for all of the help.

 

[The Pol]

Excessive sparging, leads to higher pH and more tannin extraction from grain husks. So, if you have HIGH lauter eff. you are more prone to tannin extraction. If you lower the lauter eff. then you are leaving some sugars in the grain and maintaining the pH buffering power of the grain.

This being said, I want my lauter eff. to be lower so that I can avoid the oversparging potential and the higher pH that is associated with it.

 

[sparkyaber]

Ok, thanks for the quick and easy description. Now the questions are:

First and easy one: Does the higher pH cause the tannin extraction, or are they two different animals caused by the over sparging?

Second: Could manipulating the sparge water with acid to lower the pH minimize
the effect of over sparging?

Palmer's RA spreadsheet has a section about adding acid to lower the pH, but in his brew strong webcast about water, he stated that it is not that important.

 

[Malticulous]

Just ignore that brewcast, it just wants to be ignored.

I add phosphoric acid to my sparge and have had much better results than just letting it be. My beer wants to be bad beer. It must be forced to be good. Adjusting pH was my first step to great beer and higher efficiency.

I don't add acid to the strike watter. I use Calcium Carbonate in that. It works with my watter. I got that from something Gordon Strong wrote.

 

[Kaiser]

First and easy one: Does the higher pH cause the tannin extraction, or are they two different animals caused by the over sparging?

Yes. It is mostly the high pH environment that can happen during a sparge that causes excessive tannin extraction.

Second: Could manipulating the sparge water with acid to lower the pH minimize
the effect of over sparging?

It should, but I generally don't bother.

Palmer's RA spreadsheet has a section about adding acid to lower the pH, but in his brew strong webcast about water, he stated that it is not that important.

Yes you can acidify the sparge water which reduces its alkalinity and with that its ability to raise the pH. But he is correct that it is generally not necessary.

That series of podcasts was actually pretty good.

Kai

 

[sparkyaber]

Now I can't wait to use your spreadsheet with my next batches of beer. I wish I had it when I first started all grain this spring.
I think Conroe was commenting on just the part about the acid additions. At least I hope he was, those podcast really straitened me out on the last few questions about water.
My brew partner and I plan on hammering out some good recipes for some competitions later next year, so this will give me the opportunity to see your theory in action.

 

[sparkyaber]

One last thing, Kai, your write up on your site on efficiency is really good. Now I have to read it 3 times to make it sink in.

 

[Malticulous]

I was commenting on the wrong show.

 

[Denny]

Excessive sparging, leads to higher pH and more tannin extraction from grain husks. So, if you have HIGH lauter eff. you are more prone to tannin extraction. If you lower the lauter eff. then you are leaving some sugars in the grain and maintaining the pH buffering power of the grain.

This being said, I want my lauter eff. to be lower so that I can avoid the oversparging potential and the higher pH that is associated with it.

And to be complete, we need to point out that excessive sparging is more possible with fly sparging than with batch sparging. You need to do quite a few batch sparges before you reach "excessive".

 

[sparkyaber]

Ok, I have an update. I brewed the exact same thing this weekend, and low and behold, I hit my average efficiency (mid-upper 80's). I made sure the grains were double crushed.
So that solved my issues. I did use kai's spreadsheet and it worked perfectly.

Here is a pic of the grain this time around:

I am pretty sure that it was not this fine the last time I brewed this beer.

 

[Jipper]

Looks good, pretty much what our crush is set at.

 

[Kaiser]

I am pretty sure that it was not this fine the last time I brewed this beer.

I was about to say that this crush looked a bit coarse, especially since I seem to see chunks of endosperm that are still fairly enclosed by husks. But given your efficiency this must not have been a problem. Was this a single infusion mash? Did you do a "mash out" ?

Kai

 

[sparkyaber]

I was about to say that this crush looked a bit coarse, especially since I seem to see chunks of endosperm that are still fairly enclosed by husks. But given your efficiency this must not have been a problem. Was this a single infusion mash? Did you do a "mash out" ?

Kai

Yes, it was a single infusion mash, and no I did no mash out. I have tried doing a mash out on a few of my all grains and have really not noticed any difference.

I crushed my own yesterday and it looked about the same, set at .20 one pass.

I am brewing tomorrow, I will take a pic and post it.

 

[Ashz]

This question is for Pol.

When you sparge are you now going by set volumes on known recipes, with your equipment efficiencies factored in? Or are you actually testing what you are putting in the kettle to know when to stop.

You mention your low volume sparges and I am just curious if this has been trial and error with each batch, relying on the equipment? Or have you developed a method with your equipment that is proven regardless of recipe?

Clearly you have tweaked your equipment a heck of a lot over time, I just wonder if there is something that was a huge boost to you for efficiency. The crush did wonders for me and popped me from low 70's to 79-81 right now. I am looking for another factor to key in on here.

So I guess the real question is, what the hell are you tweaking at this point and those efficiencies, that can help me?

To the original OP,

As has been pointed out crush is what ultimately helped me. Which you proved yourself.

 

[sparkyaber]

All right, I am furious. I brewed that batch I posted about above, and got horrible efficiency, I figured it was only the one pass, so I brewed it again today, this time with a double pass through the crusher, and same thing!! I don't get it. I used Kai's efficiency calculator, and it seems I am having a hard time getting it into the brew kettle. I have a fairly high gravity on the first runnings (according to Kai's sheet). It was 1.076. Good conversion right? Now is where it gets interesting. I checked the the runnings about half way through the sparge and they were low, about 1.010. And at the end they were about 1.004. I only had about a half a quart left in the mash tun. I added water to the grain (10 quarts) and check the gravity 1.000. Huh, not a speck of sugar left from the sparge. Well the final gravity was about 1.040, when it should have been about 1.050. My preboil gravity was around 1.036. So after an hour boil, I only got 4 hundredths of a point?
My recipe had:
7# two row american
2# victory
.5# crystal 60
.25 chocolate
Any Ideas, like I said, I am beside myself trying to find out where the sweet stuff went!
Thanks

 

[phatuna]

did you hit about 168F on your sparges?? What was your water to grain ratio in your mash?

 

[sparkyaber]

did you hit about 168F on your sparges?? What was your water to grain ratio in your mash?

Sorry I am a bit flustered. I guess those are important. I pushed the sparge to about 172 (fly sparge) and I used just shy of 3.5 gallons of water for the mash. So, 9.75# per 14 quarts. Almost spot on 1.5 Q/gal.

 

[sparkyaber]

I also should add, I have about 20 all grain batches under my belt, and beside the very first attempt (fly sparged in about 10 min) I have never had this problem. Oh, I guess temp and ph are important. 155 for an hour, and strait 5.4 during the mash.

 

[phatuna]

Sorry Sparky, those were the only two things that I could think of, sounds like you nailed both so you'll have to wait till one of the big boys / girls jumps in to help you troubleshoot...

 

[Denny]

(fly sparged in about 10 min)

Fly sparging should take 60-90 min. in order to adequately rinse the grain. I think this is the source of your problem.