When / Whether to Transfer to Secondary Fermentation Vessel...

[deltachild7]

Hi folks... I'm both (fairly) new to brewing and new to this forum. I recently started a Coffee Porter and a Hefeweizen (both from kits) and I have some questions about transferring to secondary and the length of fermentation.

First, the Hefeweizen stopped bubbling after 36 hours (It started within 6 hours of pitching!) and has begun to settle. I'm sure fermentation occurred and there's a layer of sludge along the inside just above the beer. But doesn't that seem like a relatively short time to ferment? Should I be worried? Would anyone recommend "perturbing" the system to get the fermentation going again or should I do my best to let it sit? I have not opened the top nor the airlock at all since pitching.

Second, the Porter took about 12 hours to start and then fermented wildly (even requiring a blow-off tube) for two days and has now dropped down to a steady rate of 1 bubble / 15 seconds. There is a lot of yeast still visibly suspended in the solution. The kit "strongly recommends" transferring it to a secondary fermenting vessel before the fermentation stops completely. I have read a thousand posts on both sides of this, and most people seem to say to leave it in primary until fermentation stops and then bottle. What do you recommend?

Both beers are sitting in the dark at a cool 66-68 degrees. Any suggestions/advice would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Arrheinous]

No need to rack to secondary. Many ale kit instructions are obsolete.

Hefe and porter especially don't need a secondary because you don't need the benefit of clearing the beer.

Fermentation continues even after the really active first part. This is what'll mature all the flavors. Let the hefe go for at least two weeks and the porter could do for three.

The only sign of a stopped fermentation is a gravity reading that doesn't change over several days.

Sounds like a normal, good fermentation.

 

[deltachild7]

Hey, thanks for your reply! I think the issue of racking to secondary is more or less resolved -- I'll leave it in. When you say Ale kits are obsolete, though, is it a recent shift towards leaving the beer in primary most of the time?

Also, the question of time spent fermenting... The kit directions may be obsolete, but it says specifically that bottling time is pretty much a consistent 7 days after pitching the yeast. Am I going to harm the beer by bottling it and letting it condition after a week? Why leave it in the primary so long?

Sorry to bug with so many questions...

 

[tooldudetool]

Bottling after 7 days is way too early IMO.. the yeast create all sorts of byproducts during fermentation that don't taste very good. Its what we call "green" beer. After they consume all the available sugars they start to consume and break down some of these byproducts, which can be called secondary fermentation or conditioning, which greatly improves the flavor of the beer. The old method was 1-2-3, 1 week primary, 2 week secondary, 3 weeks conditioning in the bottle. It is the general consensus now that racking to a secondary fermenter is unnecessary and can create more opportunity for oxidation and contamination. Leave the beer in the primary for 3 weeks, then bottle. The other concern with bottling after only a week is that fermentation may not be truly finished and you risk over carbonation in the bottle with the possibility of bottle bombs. I think another reason kit instructions tell you to bottle so soon is so they can say that the beer will be ready to drink in 3-4 weeks, instead of 6.

 

[deltachild7]

Okay, cool! Thanks for explaining that! So between you and Arrheinous, there's at least a consensus on leaving the porter in primary for 3 weeks. I can dig that. Do you think the Hefeweizen should be in there for 3 weeks as well? Would the ideal be to take measurements of the specific gravity occasionally or just leave everything sealed off until it's time? What should I watch / watch out for in the containers?

 

[Queequeg]

Some people object to yeast flavours that can occur after about 3 weeks. Not autolysis but other yeast flavours. If you have to keep the beer in the fermenter past this point and you are particularly sensitive to this flavour then secondary is an option. When using English yeast strains the fermentation can take a while, the bulk gets done quickly but then there can be a prolonged slow ferm. Currently I have a stout that just finished using london ale yeast, fermentation stopped after 14 days. Previous ESB strain took 21.

Also if you want to wash the yeast and are using adjuncts then its a good idea to move to secondary. Plus a secondary can take up less space, freeing up for another brew or making cold crashing possible

So they have there uses but most of the time you don't need a secondary.

 

[deltachild7]

Hi Queequeg, thanks for your reply... Do you think it's more a matter of getting the beer to the suggested final gravity and then bottling it or picking a period of time (like 2-3 weeks) and sticking to it? How often do you measure SG? If there's "interesting" flavors after 3 weeks, do you think 2 weeks is a happy medium? How do you decide when it's the right time?

Again, thanks to everyone for your insight... This is extremely helpful!

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

Hi Queequeg, thanks for your reply... Do you think it's more a matter of getting the beer to the suggested final gravity and then bottling it or picking a period of time (like 2-3 weeks) and sticking to it? How often do you measure SG? If there's "interesting" flavors after 3 weeks, do you think 2 weeks is a happy medium? How do you decide when it's the right time?

Again, thanks to everyone for your insight... This is extremely helpful!

Always always always always base bottling on final gravity and not a set time...your fermentation could get stuck and end up with really sweet beer that ferments out in the bottle and overcarbonates and explodes, quite dangerously sometimes.

The only time you can prematurely stop something is if your kegging, but those cases are few and far between...like Cider's or other sweet beer's you want to stop early and not ferment out fully.

 

[deltachild7]

Thanks FuzzeWuzze! That settles that issue... So, how often should you check SG? Also, as per the above skepticism regarding kit instructions, would you trust the suggested final gravity measures on the instructions or look them up somewhere?

 

[jmitchell3]

You're golden on both. Just give me each 7-10 days total before you take a gravity reading. They will most likely be finished by 10 days.

I was super nervous my first few batches, and have learned to pitch plenty of yeast and not touch it for 10 days. You'll find there really isn't a set formula for fermentation time, just best practices for preparing your wort for fermentation....sanitation, pitching rates, and temp control. Done....and done.


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[deltachild7]

Awesome. This is all great advice. I have a much greater confidence in the process now. I'm going to avoid transferring to the secondary, and let them sit and stew in the cool until their SG remains constant over a few days. Have I missed anything? Will the brew be in danger if it sits for a few extra days (like 2,3) after fermentation has completed?

Moving on, I've read a lot of people saying these Cooper's carbonation drops are reliable ways to carbonate 12 oz bottles. Would you suggest the drops or using the priming sugars included in the kits?

Thanks again, brewmasters!

 

[jmitchell3]

Nah, a few extra days in primary never hurt anything. I'd caution thought against checking gravity too much...I know it's exciting but you run the risk of oxygenation and contamination every time you open the lid. I must have checked my first batch 9 times in three days. Pitch yeast, throw on an airlock and wait 10 days. Check...then check again a day or two later...then you're done and ready to keg or bottle!


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[deltachild7]

Awesome. Thanks. I'll update the thread on how it goes and/or if there's any other questions...

 

[ajf]

When I bottled, I knew I wouldn't have time to bottle on a weekday, so I took gravity readings every Friday night (starting about 2 weeks after pitching). If I got two consecutive identical readings (which I did 90% of the time), I could bottle that weekend. If not, I would wait till next Friday to take a third gravity reading. I never had to take four readings.

-a.

 

[deltachild7]

Hi again! I ventured an SG reading of the hefeweizen because it's been so quiet... It's damn near FG! Just > 1.01! (Started at 1.045, the recipe says FG is 1.008) It's been approximately 75 hours at this point. Thoughts?

I tasted the sample and it definitely smells like a hefeweizen but it's slightly bitter to taste. Is that normal? Does it sweeten up after you bottle condition it with the priming sugar?

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

At 1.010 you might be finished, what temperature are you at? It might be worth raising it up to 68-70ish and see if it can finish those last few points if you arent already there...

I'd let it sit until the weekend then check again and bottle...the priming sugar should work, just dont follow their instructions...assuming you have a full 5 gallons that you can transfer(usually means your atleast at 5.25g in the carboy/bucket because you will leave some behind)... 4oz of priming sugar should be adequate...the thing is you need to know how much liquid you have...

Melt the sugar in a few cups of boiling water, let it cool back down a bit, pour into your bottling bucket then siphon all your beer on top of it to swirl all the sugar around.

 

[deltachild7]

What are your thoughts on carbonation drops vs. the priming sugar?

Temperature wise, it's at 68.



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[TimLa]

What are your thoughts on carbonation drops vs. the priming sugar?

Temperature wise, it's at 68.

I think carbonation drops are a very expensive route to take. If you already have them, may as well use them, but in the future, I'd just use corn sugar.

68 is fine.
Welcome to the collective!

 

[Puddlethumper]

I think carbonation drops are a very expensive route to take. If you already have them, may as well use them, but in the future, I'd just use corn sugar.

68 is fine.
Welcome to the collective!

+1 ^^^^

On the topic of using a secondary vessel you can, and probably should, leave most ales in primary until you are ready to package (2-4 weeks). There are a couple of situations where use of a secondary vessel is helpful or perhaps required:

1. If you are adding flavoring agents, oak cubes, etc. it is often easier and may give better results if you get the beer off of the yeast cake and into a secondary vessel.
2. If you are adding fining agents such as gelatin, etc. you need to get the beer cold. This is easiest if you allow the beer to finish fermenting then rack to a 5 gal. carboy for chilling.
3. If you are going to do a long-term aged beer such as a RIS, Barleywine, Old Ale, etc. it probably should be done in a glass 5gal. carboy. The glass eliminates the possibility of o2 permeation through the walls of the vessel and the minimized surface exposure of the beer to o2 in the carboy neck further reduces the possibility of oxidation.

With all that being said, many of us prefer to rack the beer off of the yeast cake rather than leave it set there for more than 3-4 weeks. The yeast adds something to the flavor of the beer. There are a number of people who don't enjoy that added flavor.

Cheers.