When to spund...Yes, another newbie LODO question

[stosh]

I'm writing a brew day manual so I can venture further down the rabbit hole of LODO brewing. I may have found a use for my perfectionism...

I'm fascinated with this whole low oxygen brewing idea. I don't know about the rest of you but one of the first things I learned when I started out was that O2 was no good (except during fermentation) and that it could affect the final product. That being said, I would think everyone would want to try to reduce/eliminate O2 best as possible from their brew day.

I brewed a small test batch in which I incorporated a mash cap, under letting, simmering boil, minimal (bordering on no) stirring, pre boiling strike water, full volume mash, conditioning my grain, and turning the mill by hand to keep RPM low. I don't expect any change in the beer at this point since I didn't use meta or brewtan b. I'm proficient at closed transfers using CO2 but probably need to use something besides StarSan?

Do I understand this correctly? The idea of spunding is to transfer to a keg (if kegging) a few gravity points before fermentation is done in order to take advantage of oxygen scavenging and natural carbonation and you figure out what the FG is by doing a FFT?

If a FFT can't be done can I visually guesstimate when to transfer? Say right after the yeast drops, or bubble activity slows considerably? Someone mentioned in one of the posts to start spunding on the "downside" of fermentation.

Wondering if pulling a vacuum on the keg before transferring would help? Just threw that out there. I haven't given it any thought.

 

[Lemmie]

Why can’t you do an FFT? You can pull off 500ml or so from the fermenter, do a hydrometer reading and then transfer the sample to a 1 liter flask and put it on a stir plate for a day or so (or until no visible activity) and recheck the hydrometer reading. If you have a spunding valve on your keg, you don’t have to worry about overcarbonating, just under carbonating and then it’s not really a worry, you just wouldn’t be taking advantage of the O2 scavenging.
Here is a link to a thread about krausening with a response from kaiser with links to several articles from his site relating to calculating how much wort or extract solution to add to your fermenter before transfer/bottling:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/krausening.64488/

 

[Die_Beerery]

Why can’t you do an FFT? You can pull off 500ml or so from the fermenter, do a hydrometer reading and then transfer the sample to a 1 liter flask and put it on a stir plate for a day or so (or until no visible activity)

No, stir plates can lead lower than normal gravities.

 

[stosh]

Why can’t you do an FFT? You can pull off 500ml or so from the fermenter, do a hydrometer reading and then transfer the sample to a 1 liter flask and put it on a stir plate for a day or so (or until no visible activity) and recheck the hydrometer reading. If you have a spunding valve on your keg, you don’t have to worry about overcarbonating, just under carbonating and then it’s not really a worry, you just wouldn’t be taking advantage of the O2 scavenging.
Here is a link to a thread about krausening with a response from kaiser with links to several articles from his site relating to calculating how much wort or extract solution to add to your fermenter before transfer/bottling:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/krausening.64488/

I can do a FFT but was curious if you could eyeball it. Given the benefits of a FFT it makes sense to do one any way.

 

[Dland]

What ever an FFT is,..? anyway, yeah, to "eyeball", if you can't or do not want to do a gravity test, rack to spund when airlock activity is medium slow (whatever that means to me,..) you will usually be pretty close.

 

[day_trippr]

Fast Fermentation Test?
Done a couple, when I had doubts. I no longer do doubtful things, so...

Cheers!

 

[Robert65]

Fast Fermentation Test?
Done a couple, when I had doubts. I no longer do doubtful things, so...

Cheers!

Forced Fermentation Test. Elevated temperature and stirring push it as far (and fast) as possible for the particular combination of wort and yeast. Ergo, aka Limit of Attenuation Test. I do them, but assume that the main batch will finish about 0.5°P higher. Still a good guideline.

Ballparking or eyeballing can work fine. But if your assumption leads you to spund *much* too early, you may arrest fermentation (dissolved CO2 makes yeast sleepy) and not attenuate as desired. But you will still have tasty, carbonated beer. If your assumption leads you to spund too late... not so carbonated, still beer. Matter of how anal you are I guess.

Cheers! (I just can't help but add that when responding to you!)

 

[Bilsch]

I'm writing a brew day manual so I can venture further down the rabbit hole of LODO brewing. I may have found a use for my perfectionism...

Glad to hear you are giving it a whirl.

I brewed a small test batch in which I incorporated a mash cap, under letting, simmering boil, minimal (bordering on no) stirring, pre boiling strike water, full volume mash, conditioning my grain, and turning the mill by hand to keep RPM low. I don't expect any change in the beer at this point since I didn't use meta or brewtan b. I'm proficient at closed transfers using CO2 but probably need to use something besides StarSan?

You might see some improvements even without the meta. I assume you are referring to keg purging using starsan and you can use starsan you just need to transfer into and out of the keg quietly without causing any turbulence that would cause foaming.

Do I understand this correctly? The idea of spunding is to transfer to a keg (if kegging) a few gravity points before fermentation is done in order to take advantage of oxygen scavenging and natural carbonation and you figure out what the FG is by doing a FFT?

Yes you got it right.

If a FFT can't be done can I visually guesstimate when to transfer? Say right after the yeast drops, or bubble activity slows considerably? Someone mentioned in one of the posts to start spunding on the "downside" of fermentation.

I've been doing low oxygen brewing for a couple years now and I'd say yes you can make due without a FFT but you are kind of flying blind. Better to transfer earlier then later though.

Wondering if pulling a vacuum on the keg before transferring would help? Just threw that out there. I haven't given it any thought.

That wont work with a corny keg because the lids will just pull down and draw in air ruining the purge of the keg.