when to do a diacetyl and how long

[78kombi]

Hi..
Doing my 2nd lager, first one was a lil slippery, but no butter flavor..
so on this one I want to get it clean..
My recipe is
5# Light DME
1# Munich CaraMalt
1# Belgian Biscuit
1 oz chinook
1 oz fuggles (about 24 IBU)

http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/recipator/recipator?group=39&item=8539

On the 25th of October I pitched S-23 @ 65 and over night it cooled to about 50 . so its been active for about 3 days or so.
Its still fermenting really well and has been at 50 degrees this whole time, got about one inch and a quarter krauzen on top and it shows no sign of slowing
( Id say another 2 days itll calm down..)
do I wait til theres no visible activity to do a rest or bring it up now in the midst of the most activity?
also how long to leave it at 64 degrees before racking to lager?
sorry all this has prolly been covered a hundred times, but Im actually surprised there is no straight up Lager section..thanks Joe

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/how-tell-if-your-lager-needs-diacetyl-rest-115198/

 

[78kombi]

thankyou..good reading. answers my question

 

[Revvy]

THis is the uber thread I think on Doing one..

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/preventing-diacetyl-hold-butter-please-70438/?highlight=butter

It even has info on the fact that even ALES may need one.

 

[remilard]

I'm not a fan of causing problems and then fixing them later, and I think that is substantially what the "home brewing" method of fermenting lagers is.

If you pitch enough yeast cold, you'll get a clean lager without having to do any damage control.

Here is some good info on fermenting lagers including warm pitching vs cold pitching.

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fermenting_Lagers

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fermenting_Lagers

 

[Revvy]

I'm not a fan of causing problems and then fixing them later, and I think that is substantially what the "home brewing" method of fermenting lagers is.

If you pitch enough yeast cold, you'll get a clean lager without having to do any damage control.

Here is some good info on fermenting lagers including warm pitching vs cold pitching.

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fermenting_Lagers

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fermenting_Lagers

LOL, I think you, Donkey sniffer and I gave him more info than he even thought existed on the subject...prolly more than he wanted to know.

 

[78kombi]

All the information is what I require, I gotta keep up my reputation with my brew buddys as mr know it all..just kidding.
On the S-23 package it says to pitch 11grams at room temps, or 22 grams at 51-59 degrees F, so I went with the room temps, next time I will pitch at 55 F with 22 grams.
There seems to be alot of people on the fence about the rest.
It looks like its all about pitching temps. I am going to read remilards braukaiser links, thanks guys
EDIT* In one of the articles it tells that warm pitching goes as such
"To pitch warm, chill your wort until it has a temperature of 65 - 68 °F (15 - 18 °C) aerate it well and pitch the yeast. Now wait until you see signs of fermentation (low kraeusen or bubbles in the airlock) and move it to an area where you maintain about 50 °F"
I pitched at around 68 F and immediately brought it to the cooler ( shop room with cement floor)
Id say within 6 hrs it was at 55 F and no signs of activity for about 24-30 hrs later.
so Im kinda in between both situations..If I had to guess, Im guessing the beer wont need a rest.

 

[Yooper]

All the information is what I require, I gotta keep up my reputation with my brew buddys as mr know it all..just kidding.
On the S-23 package it says to pitch 11grams at room temps, or 22 grams at 51-59 degrees F, so I went with the room temps, next time I will pitch at 55 F with 22 grams.
There seems to be alot of people on the fence about the rest.
It looks like its all about pitching temps. I am going to read remilards braukaiser links, thanks guys

It really is about proper pitching temps, and pitching enough yeast. Off-flavors come from stressed yeast, and the hallmark of a good lager is a very "clean" taste. Diacetyl is a yeast by-product, and fruity esters are caused by stressed yeast.

Also, some strains of yeast are more likely to throw diacetyl than others. The yeast manufacturers have great websites, with all of the information about each strain, including if they are notorious diacetyl producers. When I make my maibock, using German bock yeast, I never need a diacetyl rest. I follow mrmalty.com's yeast pitching recommendations, and ferment within the optimum temperatures suggested by the yeast manufacturer's. Of course, we're talking about the fermenting beer temperature, not the ambient temperature.

 

[oldschool]

On a different not I am 13 days in to a hybrid right now. Can you give me a commercial example of a beer containing diacetyl? I don't remember every tasting this. Something i need to learn.

 

[remilard]

On a different not I am 13 days in to a hybrid right now. Can you give me a commercial example of a beer containing diacetyl? I don't remember every tasting this. Something i need to learn.

Smithwick's has some.

When it is intentional, it is either at a restrained level or works synergistically in the beer. So hopefully there are no commercial examples of a rank buttery taste or an unappetizing slickness. A lot of Irish reds will have perceptible diacetyl though. Some stouts have it as well but its a little harder to pick out in them since they are otherwise more complex and strongly flavored.

 

[oldschool]

well i'm not sure i want to try them now. the only smithwick's i've had was pretty crappy. I know i had read some stuff in BJCP about allowable ammounts of diacetyl but i couldn't remember.

 

[remilard]

Yeah its allowable per BJCP in Irish Ale, Scotch Ale, Dry Stout, Czech Pils, Oktoberfest, English Pale, maybe a couple more.

IME, you are most likely to find it in an Irish Ale.

Pilsner Urquell has some too though.

 

[78kombi]

i dont have a chamber to use for fermentation, Here in Massachusetts its been around 45 degrees so the beer has been ok in the shop room, but of course yessaday there were southerly winds that brought temps into the upper 60's, so i put a hoodie on the carboy and it never got over 57 degrees, maybe that will be my natures rest? !
still at 57, but the temps fell over night, so the beer will go back down to 50 again by tonite. 7 days in primary. is it too early to move it to a keg and put it in the fridge?
I only ask cus its sunday and way convenient.

 

[78kombi]

fortunately, I kegged the beer today , tasted it and no butter flavor..

 

[oldschool]

just found out that Sam Smith Pale Ale contains some diacetyl I will have to try this out to see if i can detect it.

 

[khiddy]

If you can get Deschutes Mirror Pond Pale Ale, my brewmaster buddy says he can detect diacetyl in it a mile away. If I look for it carefully with my tongue, I can find it, but I love that particular beer, so it's obviously pretty harmonious to my tastebuds (and the thousands of other fans of Deschutes).

 

[McGarnigle]

Several Northeast breweries use Ringwood yeast, which has a rep for producing diacetyl. Cooperstown Brewing has a few beers that are quite buttery (Pale Ale, Pride of Milford). Shipyard and Magic Hat also use it, though I am not sure which if any of their beers leave diacetyl traces.

 

[78kombi]

just tried this beer and it came out awesome. yay.