When to add sugar to a Belgian-style ale.

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BirdArvid

BirdArvid

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Sitting with a friend at a local High-gravity Belgian-style brewery, comparing their beer to St Bernardus Abt 12, which they had on tap. The flavors were quite similar, but the Abt 12 had that wonderful Belgian lightness and balance, even with a higher ABV. The brewmaster, who is a great guy chatted with us for a while, said when I asked about sugar-addition: "We try to add as little as possible, and only in the fermenter, not to the boil. Yeast needs to grow and take in oxygen at the beginning of fermentation, not gobble sugar" Surely this is the reason his beer is "heavier" than Belgian beers of the same ABV? Should I add sugar (I know, I'll use good, suitable sugars!) to the boil, to get the gravity to where I want it? I'm aiming for the high gravity but light Belgian feel (Duvel-style) Last time I made a Belgian-style, I used Wyeast 3787, which Weast say should not be overwhelmed with too high an initial gravity, but sugar should be added when the fermentation has had time to "get going". I added some Candi Sugar to the boil, and it was fine.
Belgian-style brewers out there, how do I best achieve my goal? :mug:
 
If I have plenty of healthy yeast, I add it to the boil. If I am pitching on the low end, I add it as a boiled and cooled syrup when it is convenient after a few days. Also try mash temps below 150 and raising the temp toward the end of fermentation to get a nice digestible beer.
 
I've used 3787 and always added all sugar to the boil and had good results. Never actually tried fermenter additions as I've never had (knock on wood) attenuation troubles with boil additions.

Cheers
 
I've only added 1lb of sugar into small batches, and i added it during the boil. However, I was discussing a strong ale recipe with a fellow homebrewer, and he suggested adding the sugar during fermentation 3-4 days in. He also suggested boiling the sugar in water prior to that, so that I can just add it and not have to worry about it sinking to the bottom and causing a ruckus.
 
If you want something like Duvel, you dont actually need the specialty sugars. I'm pretty sure it's 15% corn sugar and some wheat starch to get the huge attenuation. Might even be 17, but I'm sure i have read that it's a lot of sugar in Duvel.
 
there's several camps on this. the consensus seems to be that additions of simple sugar less than ~10% can be added to the boil. large sugar additions should be added a few days into fermentation to prevent a stuck fermentation. i never do large sugar additions. typically 8oz to a 1.060 brew.
 
Thanks guys! Think I'll go with Ron's idea: Add half of the sugar in the boil, then the rest after the fermentation settles a little. Will most probably use white labs wlp570, after making a big, lovely starter!! Brewin' me a devil!!
 
Not sure where you got the information on 3787 because Wyeast does not say anything about "Weast say should not be overwhelmed with too high an initial gravity, but sugar should be added when the fermentation has had time to "get going"." http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=65
Westmalle, the source of this yeast, adds sugar to the boil with great success. Plain old cane sugar for a tripel works fine, at 15-20% of gravity. A great tripel recipe is Pilsner malt mashed @148-150 with 5% aromatic malt and 15-20% sugar in the boil. 3787 just needs the temperature ramped up at the end of fermentation, and time, to reach FG and make a great beer. For a BDSA you can always sub darker candi sugar or syrup for the cane sugar to get the darker color and dark dried fruit flavors, as well as a little Special B for some of the aromatic.
 
My Tripel used 2lbs of sugar in the fermenter, about 3 days after pitching the yeast. It attenuated really well with wy3787. I'll only be doing it that way from now on.

Also, plain white table sugar is perfect for those Belgian beers.
 
I pretty much only brew Belgians now. I've used up to 20% sugar (table sugar) on some of them all in the boil and never had a stuck fermentation. Used 3787 on many as well and let the temperature free rise at the end. Read "Brew Like a Monk" for some great information.
 
Does Brew like a monk have a lot of history in it too? Been wanting that book for awhile just haven't pulled the trigger yet.
 
stevo4361 said:
Does Brew like a monk have a lot of history in it too? Been wanting that book for awhile just haven't pulled the trigger yet.
Click to expand...


yes. it covers each of the trappist breweries history, ingredients, fermentation, etc. At the end, it gives american examples... russian river, etc. I dont read a lot of books but I've read this one a few times.
 
I add my sugar additions to the fermenter. I think you get better attenuation. You will still get good attenuation without it, but for most Belgium beer styles you want a really dry beer. The yeast need to go through their growth phase before consuming a lot of sucrose. The yeast produce an enzyme to consume maltose, but can always consume sucrose.

I usually do my addition on the third day. I boil the sugar in water and let it cool before adding it to fermenter.
 
Jamil talks about these two different options on his podcast about brewing tripels (or maybe it's Belgian golden strongs). But he doesn't have any objective comparison between the two.
 
I see the yeast growth issue only being a problem if you are using a lot of adjunct. My last beer like this was a strong saison with a pound of candi sugar. That pound only amounted to 6.7% of the fermentables.

It was bone dry. But in full disclosure, I used a blend of Saison & Orval yeast.
 
Not sure if this is an actual thing, or maybe it's common knowledge. No idea. My friend suggested adding the sugar (larger amounts 2-3lbs) into the fermenter days after the initial yeast pitching, in an attempt to make a high gravity beer taste less boozy. Is that an actual thing, or are we both crazy?
 
Culbetron said:
Jamil talks about these two different options on his podcast about brewing tripels (or maybe it's Belgian golden strongs). But he doesn't have any objective comparison between the two.
Click to expand...

my guess is that it doesn't matter. i get my high gravity Belgians really low FG using the sugar in the boil and pitching enough yeast. never boozy and always dry. many breweries use this method and russian river says on their website that they add sugar to the boil as well. i think the key, besides enough yeast, is raising the temperature gradually or even a free rise to ambient (which is what i always do and is mentioned many times in "Brew Like a Monk").
 
drunkrhino said:
my guess is that it doesn't matter. i get my high gravity Belgians really low FG using the sugar in the boil and pitching enough yeast. never boozy and always dry. many breweries use this method and russian river says on their website that they add sugar to the boil as well. i think the key, besides enough yeast, is raising the temperature gradually or even a free rise to ambient (which is what i always do and is mentioned many times in "Brew Like a Monk").
Click to expand...

I disagree that it does not matter. All things being equal (same pitch, same gravity, same temp) adding to the fermenter will attenuate better than adding to the kettle. That is not to say you can't get the attention by compensating through other means of your process.

I have done a side by side comparison with the same wort and adding sugar to the fermenter attenuated 4 points further.

The other benefit is you can restart a stuck fermentation.

Like all things brewing related there are lots of ways to get good results.
 
pdxal said:
Not sure where you got the information on 3787 because Wyeast does not say anything about "Weast say should not be overwhelmed with too high an initial gravity, but sugar should be added when the fermentation has had time to "get going"." http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=65
Westmalle, the source of this yeast, adds sugar to the boil with great success. Plain old cane sugar for a tripel works fine, at 15-20% of gravity. A great tripel recipe is Pilsner malt mashed @148-150 with 5% aromatic malt and 15-20% sugar in the boil. 3787 just needs the temperature ramped up at the end of fermentation, and time, to reach FG and make a great beer. For a BDSA you can always sub darker candi sugar or syrup for the cane sugar to get the darker color and dark dried fruit flavors, as well as a little Special B for some of the aromatic.
Click to expand...

I found this post:
Greetings!

There has been some discussion on the Homebrewtalk.com forums regarding
the 3787 yeast - you mention in your website that the 3787 "This type
of
yeast benefits from incremental feeding of sugars during fermentation,
making suitable conditions for doubles and triples, to ferment to
dryness."

What sort of differences can be expected in adding the sugar during
fermentation as opposed to adding it during the boil? Why does the
yeast
create a drier beer this way, and how would it affect the flavor
profile?

Thanks so much



And... here is Wyeast's very interesting reply...



Thank you for the email.

Excellent questions. 3787 can sometimes struggle to attenuate high
gravity wort. It will commonly form a dense cap in big beers which can
minimize the number of cells in suspension doing the actual work. In
addition, it is highly flocculent and can drop out of suspension
towards
the tail end of fermentation leaving some residual sugar. Gentle
agitation of the carboy can help with attenuation. This being said,
3787 has wonderful and unique character which makes it my favorite
Belgian strain.

Dosing the carboy with sugar during the course of fermentation will
keep
the sugar levels lower which can minimize the cap formation and
increase
the likelihood of complete attenuation. This will also change the
profile of the beer by lowering ester formation.

Please remember that all strains perform slightly differently in each
brew house. I suggest to continue experimenting with the strain to
find
what works in your brewery.

I hope that this helps.

Cheers,

Greg


Greg Doss
Quality Control Manager
Microbiologist/ Brewer
Wyeast Laboratories, Inc.
 
Great reply, thanks! I love these discussions, I learn so much and have great fun doing so. Please all have a look at the reply I posted to a previous post, with a comment by a dude from Wyeast! PS: Will certainly drop the bulk of my sugars into the fermenter.
 
Yes, I'm reading Brew Like a Monk as well, great book. I also have "Belgian Ale" and I find "Designing Great Beer" and "Radical Brewing" to be helpful, informative and FUN also.
 
It's a great book. That and "Radical Brewing" and "Designing Great Beers" are must reads, IMHO.
 

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