When to add sparge water acid

[JohnK93]

Hello all,

I'm looking for some clarification on when to add the lactic acid called out in the Sparge addition in cell L31 in the Brun Water 1.18 Water Adjustment tab.

I brewed a batch of NEIPA on Saturday and adjusted the water using gypsum, CaCl2, and lactic acid in the mash, per the spreadsheet. I then added the Sparge additions of gypsum and CaCl2 to the boil, as I usually do. I also usually add the lactic acid in the Sparge addition directly to the boil kettle, but convinced myself that I didn't need to add the 3.3mL lactic acid (indicated by Brun Water) this time. Now I'm wondering if the final pH of the beer will be noticeably off.

I thought I had a conversation with Martin about this, but couldn't dig it up. When do you add the Sparge acid, or do you need to add it at all?

Thanks,
John

 

[RPh_Guy]

Sparge water acid needs to go in the sparge water BEFORE sparging.

You need to neutralize sparge water alkalinity or you risk extracting badness from the grain if the pH and temperature get too high.

 

[JohnK93]

That makes sense if I'm adding salts to the sparge water, but I add them directly to the boil kettle after sparging. I wouldn't think the acid would be needed to neutralize the sparge water unless the pH of my water is naturally high (the last time I had it tested, the measured pH was 8.0)

This is what was going through my mind at the time, anyway.

-John

 

[RPh_Guy]

Water pH is irrelevant and has no effect.

The alkalinity is what matters, and affects the mash/sparge pH.

This may be counterintuitive, but it's true.

 

[BeerFst]

8 is high. sparge water should be <6 IIRC, the salts and the acid will both be bringing that down. You would need extra acid if you didnt add the salts to the sparge water. But i would assume doing that would mess with final pH.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

That makes sense if I'm adding salts to the sparge water, but I add them directly to the boil kettle after sparging. I wouldn't think the acid would be needed to neutralize the sparge water unless the pH of my water is naturally high (the last time I had it tested, the measured pH was 8.0)

This is what was going through my mind at the time, anyway.

-John

The alkalinity of the sparge water is what acidification is mainly addressing. Not the pH. For example, my well water is pH 7.2, but it also has 436 ppm of alkalinity.

To bring HCO3- to zero requires acidification to a pH of 4.3. Acidification to pH 5.4 eliminates about 91% of HCO3-, and this is considered sufficient, and is also conveniently commensurate with the most common mash pH target.

 

[JohnK93]

OK, that makes sense. My water alkalinity is 116ppm at last testing, but I don't have any sense for how high this is. So does the Sparge water acid addition listed in Brun Water assume that I'm adding the salts to the sparge water, or does this even matter? Should I just add the 3.3mL acid it says to add to my sparge water? I don't yet have a pH meter to verify the Brun Water calculations, and don't' really understand all the science yet, so I'm flying a little blind here (and I'm more worried about my water profile changing than the accuracy of the spreadsheet.)

I was also going off a BeerSmith article talking about differing thoughts on when sparging additions should be added (in the sparge water, in the kettle, etc.,) but obviously I have a lot to learn here...appreciate the responses.

-John

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Yes, just add the acid to the sparge water.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

I'm sure there are compelling reasons to treat sparge water rather than use untreated reverse osmosis or distilled water for sparging, which is what I do.

 

[JohnK93]

Yes, just add the acid to the sparge water.

Yeah, this is what I've done in the past, but for some reason decided not to this batch. Do you add salts to the sparge water or directly to the kettle?

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Yeah, this is what I've done in the past, but for some reason decided not to this batch. Do you add salts to the sparge water or directly to the kettle?

I prepare my brewing water the night before brew day @JohnK93. It takes time for brewing water to reach an equilibrium after adding salts and acid.

 

[JohnK93]

I prepare my brewing water the night before brew day @JohnK93. It takes time for brewing water to reach an equilibrium after adding salts and acid.

That's smart...I measure the strike water the night before. I thought the salts would dissolve better in warmer water, but I just learned that salts should not be added to the hot water, so maybe next time I'll add the night before too.

 

[eric19312]

You treat sparge water in order to avoid having your final runnings become too basic and extracting tannins. The number in my head says when fly sparging you want to keep your final runnings not lower than SG 1.010 and pH of the final runnings should not go higher than 5.8.

These are only issues with fly sparging, I don't think it is possible to get such low gravity in batch sparge or BIAB scenarios. Even with fly sparging it is mainly a concern when making light colored low gravity beers.

Do you know the pH and gravity of your final runnings? Even if you did my bet is your beer will be fine.

As for worrying about the pH of the final beer I don't think you will have any problems with its pH.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Yeah, this is what I've done in the past, but for some reason decided not to this batch. Do you add salts to the sparge water or directly to the kettle?

I've gone over to no-sparge, but when I sparged, I added minerals to the sparge water (sans for alkalizing minerals). I can't imagine that the difference between this and adding the same portion of them to the boil kettle would be all that significant.

 

[RPh_Guy]

It takes time for brewing water to reach an equilibrium after adding salts and acid.

Time, as in, about a minute, with stirring?

 

[JohnK93]

Do you know the pH and gravity of your final runnings? As for worrying about the pH of the final beer I don't think you will have any problems with its pH.

No, I've kind of stopped taking so many readings during the mash and sparge, as I never really had an issue with gravity of the final runnings. I don't have a pH meter and the strips are useless, so this is one area where I'm just trusting the spreadsheets (although I'm sure that my water profile has changed since I had it tested a few years ago.)

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Time, as in, about a minute, with stirring?

I would think twenty minutes or so after making additions. Overnight works for me. Having brewing water ready the next morning means a shorter brew day.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I would think twenty minutes or so after making additions. Overnight works for me. Having brewing water ready the next morning means a shorter brew day.

Once they are fully dissolved (I.E., dissociated) you are good to go. Could happen in a minute or less with stirring. Sometimes I add my minerals just before doughing in.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Do you add salts to the sparge water or directly to the kettle?

Either. They aren't needed in the sparge water.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Once they are fully dissolved (I.E., dissociated) you are good to go. Could happen in a minute or less with stirring. Sometimes I add my minerals just before doughing in.

Calcium chloride takes me a good ten minutes to dissolve with stirring. Epsom Salt dissolves nearly instantly.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Sparge additions are just that, sparge.

Adding salts or acid to the kettle is certainly also a thing that can be done, but it doesn't interact with mash/sparge pH the same way. Few homebrewers venture into altering boil kettle pH, though a minority of homebrewers (and good number of pros) do.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Calcium chloride takes me a good ten minutes to dissolve with stirring. Epsom Salt dissolves nearly instantly.

Is that for ~70 degree F. water, or for 160+ degree F. water? If you add minerals to strike water at ~160+ degrees F. (or higher) prior to doughing in, the minerals should dissolve far more readily than for 70 degree water. I usually add about 175 degree F. water to my mash cooler, and then while this water is simultaneously warming up the cooler and falling to my chosen ~160 degree or so dough-in temperature, I add minerals to it and stir to dissolve them.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Well two weeks ago my tap water was 55F as it left the RO filter. It was under 70F when I treated the water. I transferred the treated water to the kettle and raised it to 149F for dough in.

 

[JohnK93]

I've gone over to no-sparge, but when I sparged, I added minerals to the sparge water (sans for alkalizing minerals). I can't imagine that the difference between this and adding the same portion of them to the boil kettle would be all that significant.

How much lactic acid with distilled water on a Pilsner?

Silver_Is_Money, this is the thread I was referencing earlier, but after finding and re-reading, the difference is that at the time we were talking about brewing a pilsner and sparging with RO water, so the lactic acid was not needed in the sparge water. When I brewed this weekend, I was brewing with tap water, which is why I should have added acid to the sparge. Live and learn.

Best,
John

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

How much lactic acid with distilled water on a Pilsner?

Silver_Is_Money, this is the thread I was referencing earlier, but after finding and re-reading, the difference is that at the time we were talking about brewing a pilsner and sparging with RO water, so the lactic acid was not needed in the sparge water. When I brewed this weekend, I was brewing with tap water, which is why I should have added acid to the sparge. Live and learn.

Best,
John

There is basically no alkalinity in RO water so it'll readily adjust to whatever the alkalinity and pH of your mash is.

 

[ajdelange]

Epsom Salt dissolves nearly instantly.

It should. There's lots of water in it.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I'm of the opinion that even if you are sparging with RO or distilled water it doesn't hurt to add 0.2 mL of 88% lactic acid, or 2 mL of 10% phosphoric acid to your sparge water. At best it delays or prevents end of run-off pH rise, and at worst it lowers the pH a smidgen before heading for the boil (which many would find to be a good thing).

 

[Brian66]

I'm using Brun' water for the first time with filtered tap water. I'll be making the rocky raccoon honey lager using BIAM. According to the spreadsheet I don't add anything to the mash water but I need to add some acid to the sparge water. For sparge I'm just heating the water and pouring over the grains. The amount of phosphoric acid to add to sparge is low - 1/2 tsp

What would be the reason for adding acid to the sparge and not the mash water?

edit to add - i'm doing small batches 2.5 gallons

this is my water profile
pH 7.8
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 216
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.36
Cations / Anions, me/L 2.8 / 2.9

ppm

Sodium, Na 27
Potassium, K 3
Calcium, Ca 25.8
Magnesium, Mg 3
Total Hardness, CaCO3 78
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.1 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 8
Chloride, Cl 49
Carbonate, CO3 < 1.0
Bicarbonate, HCO3 64
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 53
Total Phosphorus, P < 0.01
Total Iron, Fe < 0.01

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Without full grist info and water analyticals and water volume details it would be hard to assess why no acid is required within the mash, but one can speculate that aggregate grist acidity combined with added (or perhaps already present) mineralization is adequate to overcome mash water Alkalinity, along with overcoming the mash pH impact of a higher than target mash pH base malt's pHDI, which inherently brings with it an effectively negative acidity with respect to mash pH target, and thereby achieve a mash at a pH within the acceptable target range.

The reason for sparge water acidification is to reduce sparge water Alkalinity sufficiently that final sparge run off does not rise above a maximum of ~pH 6. Sparge water acidified to about pH 5.5 generally satisfies this criteria. This is primarily done to avoid leaching tannins.

 

[mabrungard]

There could be conditions when the mash isn’t acidified, but the sparge is. A darker grist would be a case.