When to add DME

[Hacksaw Smithers]

I found a recipe for an American pale ale that I wanted to try. The recipe calls for 5 pounds of light DME with a 60 minute boil, but it does not specify at what times to add any of the extract. Should I assume that all 5 pounds should be added right as the boil starts? Or would anyone recommend any periodic additions throughout the boil?

 

[kh54s10]

For simplicity most kits or instructions have you adding all the DME at the beginning. This will create a darker beer as compared to a commercial or all grain example of the same beer.

If you are concerned with the look of the beer, keeping it lighter, then add half of the DME at the beginning and the other half at the end. I do the second half after I have turned off the heat.

If you want to make it easier and don't care about the color, add it all at the beginning.

 

[GPNewBrew]

For simplicity most kits or instructions have you adding all the DME at the beginning. This will create a darker beer as compared to a commercial or all grain example of the same beer.

If you are concerned with the look of the beer, keeping it lighter, then add half of the DME at the beginning and the other half at the end. I do the second half after I have turned off the heat.

If you want to make it easier and don't care about the color, add it all at the beginning.

Good advice; but to add another:

You should probably split up your water in proportion to your extract split, in other words, partial volume, partial extract. Using the same proportion water (or close to it) as the extract will keep the hops utilization in line with expectations. If you boil your hops in a diluted wort, the beer will end up tasting different than intended.

 

[Goowa]

Probably should note that all DME additions should be done with at _least_ 10 minutes left in the boil, in order to ensure it is sanitized.

 

[kh54s10]

Probably should note that all DME additions should be done with at _least_ 10 minutes left in the boil, in order to ensure it is sanitized.

It really only takes about 170 degrees to sanitize.

 

[Goowa]

It really only takes about 170 degrees to sanitize.

Well I'll be, I have been perpetuating a myth!!

Here’s a direct quote from an article titled “Water Disinfection for International and Wilderness Travelers” from the Oxford Journal of Clinical Infectious Diseases:

“Because enteric pathogens are killed within seconds by boiling water and are killed rapidly at temperatures >60°C [or >140°F], the traditional advice to boil water for 10 min to ensure potability is excessive.Because the time required to heat water from a temperature of 55°C [or 131°F] to a boil works toward disinfection, any water that is brought to a boil should be adequately disinfected. Boiling water for 1 min or keeping water covered and then allowing it to cool slowly after boiling can add an extra margin of safety. The boiling point decreases with increasing altitude, but this is not significant when compared with the time required to achieve thermal death at these temperatures.”

 

[kh54s10]

Wilderness is totally different. In brewing you are brewing with fresh water. In the wilderness the water would likely be contaminated to start with.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I found a recipe for an American pale ale that I wanted to try. The recipe calls for 5 pounds of light DME with a 60 minute boil, but it does not specify at what times to add any of the extract. Should I assume that all 5 pounds should be added right as the boil starts? Or would anyone recommend any periodic additions throughout the boil?

Adding the DME during the boil is asking for an ugly foaming boil-over mess. Add it at around 180 degrees on the water.

 

[RM-MN]

Well I'll be, I have been perpetuating a myth!!

Health departments haven't helped with them advocating boiling for 10 minutes but they are dealing with a wide range of abilities and equipment. I can heat my water to 140 and hold it there for disinfecting but I know how accurate my thermometer is and am patient enough to wait it out. If you have no thermometer, anyone can tell if water is boiling. If you tell them it needs 10 minutes you might get them to boil for 2 minutes. That will ensure safety but for sure it is going far beyond necessity.

 

[ListerH]

I always stuck to adding extract at the beginning of the boil. My worries with adding at the end really relate to DMS and not having time to for it to boil off. Having said that, most extracts I think are pre boiled etc and probably for long enough for this not to be an issue. I err on the side of caution.

The other consideration would be the "boil over" potential for adding to a full pot of boiling wort

 

[Immocles]

I generally add it before boiling/after steeping. Also seems to dissolve quicker in non-boiling water. But that could just be my imagination was I'm staring into the mesmerizing waters...

Adding the DME during the boil is asking for an ugly foaming boil-over mess. Add it at around 180 degrees on the water.

Before I ever used the stuff, I watched a friend toss it into a full boil of water and the foam over was pretty damned impressive.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Well I'll be, I have been perpetuating a myth!!

There is a short term 'cure' for myth perpetuation. Get a copy of How To Brew, 4e. In chapter 1, on page 14, he talks about how to add the DME safely towards the end of the boil. And it's called pasteurization, not sanitization.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I generally add it before boiling/after steeping. Also seems to dissolve quicker in non-boiling water. But that could just be my imagination was I'm staring into the mesmerizing waters...

What's interesting about a careful read of chapter 1 of How to Brew, 4e (p 11) is that the 1st half of the extract is added to the cold water (at flame on).

 

[Goowa]

There is a short term 'cure' for myth perpetuation. Get a copy of How To Brew, 4e. In chapter 1, on page 14, he talks about how to add the DME safely towards the end of the boil. And it's called pasteurization, not sanitization.

Naw, the myth has nothing to do with DME, or even brewing. It's that you need to boil water for 10 minutes to kill off bugs.

 

[Apimyces]

Well I'll be, I have been perpetuating a myth!!

Here’s a direct quote from an article titled “Water Disinfection for International and Wilderness Travelers” from the Oxford Journal of Clinical Infectious Diseases:

“Because enteric pathogens are killed within seconds by boiling water and are killed rapidly at temperatures >60°C [or >140°F], the traditional advice to boil water for 10 min to ensure potability is excessive.Because the time required to heat water from a temperature of 55°C [or 131°F] to a boil works toward disinfection, any water that is brought to a boil should be adequately disinfected. Boiling water for 1 min or keeping water covered and then allowing it to cool slowly after boiling can add an extra margin of safety. The boiling point decreases with increasing altitude, but this is not significant when compared with the time required to achieve thermal death at these temperatures.”

Well, to note, if you bring water to a boil, and then add the DME, only the water was sanitized, not the DME, as the DME was not exposed to 55C-100C period. There are charts for time-temperature relations all over, I don't think the DME will need to be heated much longer (if it even needed to to begin with?), but it's something to bear in mind if you intend to start rapidly chilling your wort right after adding DME (or any other ingredient).

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Has anyone considered that in order to hit software predicted IBU's of bitterness, all of the DME needs to be present within the wort before the boil and various of hop additions commence?

 

[kh54s10]

Has anyone considered that in order to hit software predicted IBU's of bitterness, all of the DME needs to be present within the wort before the boil and various of hop additions commence?

May be true but the beers I have done with late DME additions did not suffer in any way.

 

[LostHopper]

After listening to Basic Brewing podcast hop samplers I have done many DME beers with only a 10-15 minute boil. I add DME when the water starts getting "warm". Bittering addition for 10-15 minutes, any late additions are post-boil hop stands anywhere from 190 to 120 degrees. You do get some bittering by adding hops 180-190. Beer is good and no darkening.

I've done a few 1-2 gallon "no boil" dme batches. Bring water to 180, add DME as it warms, add hops and let it slide to 120 then chill. Simple.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

After listening to Basic Brewing podcast hop samplers I have done many DME beers with only a 10-15 minute boil. I add DME when the water starts getting "warm". Bittering addition for 10-15 minutes, any late additions are post-boil hop stands anywhere from 190 to 120 degrees. You do get some bittering by adding hops 180-190. Beer is good and no darkening.

With the 'right' post-boil hopping techniques, one can get the desired bitterness with just a really short (1 minute) boil.

See http://brulosophy.com/2018/02/05/kettle-hop-vs-hop-stand-exbeeriment-results/ for one approach. FWIW, the article includes lab measured IBUs.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Has anyone considered that in order to hit software predicted IBU's of bitterness, all of the DME needs to be present within the wort before the boil and various of hop additions commence?

If my brewing software doesn't model my brewing process, I have a couple of choices:

1. change my brewing process to match the software I use.
   
2. change my brewing software to match the process that I use. Hello Excel!
3. accept that "the IBU is a lie"
   
4. brew without software.

For me, option 2 is currently the "most fun".

 

[GPNewBrew]

Has anyone considered that in order to hit software predicted IBU's of bitterness, all of the DME needs to be present within the wort before the boil and various of hop additions commence?

You can hit the software predicted IBU’s by adding only a portion of the water when you add the initial DME/LME. The key is to keep the amount of water in proportion the extract/fermentables. The keeps the OG as designed and the IBU’s the same, as hop isomerization is dependent on amount of fermentable sugars in the wort (OG).

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

You can hit the software predicted IBU’s by adding only a portion of the water when you add the initial DME/LME.

This approach reads like the "partial boil with late extract additions" approach (or "wort a/b" in HtB, 4e). For many styles of beer, it is an excellent approach. But it does have come with trade-offs and constraints.

One of the trade-offs is that there will be limits to the amount of hop oils that a volume of wort can hold.

IIRC, this number is frequently stated to be around 100 IBUs (but I don't know the source). There appears to be similar numbers in the data in Basic Brewing Radios (BBR)'s "November 1, 2018 - IBUs vs Wort Gravity and Hop Stand Temps" episode.

Adding back half the water at the end of the boil will lower the amount of hop oils that make it to the FV by about half (so perhaps a limit of 50 IBUs?).

Back to BBR (again). Some of their recent hop sampler episodes have included lab measured IBUs. A recent episode (IIRC, April 25, 2019 - Hop Sampler - Galena, Denali, El Dorado) included some discussion of software estimated IBUs for some of those beers. Again, IIRC, the software estimated IBUs were close enough to be useful -- but not close enough to claim "I hit all my numbers".

For me, "all models are wrong, but some are useful" seems to be a nice way to summarize mathematically estimated IBUs.

 

[fendersrule]

i've always added DME in the kettle when it was heating up. Zero boil-overs. Zero concerns. Plenty of time to R.A.H.A.H.B.

For mini mashes, I would mash first, then add DME when the kettle was heating it's way up to the boil. Again, zero concerns. R.A.H.A.H.B.

I would never put that crap in during a boil. I just don't trust it.

R.A.H.A.H.B.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

i've always added DME in the kettle when it was heating up. Zero boil-overs. Zero concerns. Plenty of time to R.A.H.A.H.B.

For mini mashes, I would mash first, then add DME when the kettle was heating it's way up to the boil. Again, zero concerns. R.A.H.A.H.B.

I would never put that crap in during a boil. I just don't trust it.

What about color?

Many home brewers would state that this approach, adding all the extract (LME? DME?) at the start of the boil, darkens the wort too much for them. And, at the extreme, there's a BYO article ("Boil Hops, Not Extract", pay wall) that talks about adding all the extract at flame-out. Anecdotally, I'm getting lighter colors when I use BBR's Hop Sampler (or "whirlpool" sampler) - which also adds all the DME just after flame-on.

So, the curiosity question: Are you doing longer (30+ minute boils) and the getting "style appropriate" color that you want?

 

[kh54s10]

I add 1/2 at the beginning of the boil. It is boiling. I add the rest at the end of the boil. 60 minute boil. I don't think you get the right thing out of hops if there is no malt in the boil, so adding all the DME at the end wouldn't work. The beers are always darker than all grain, but not terribly so. And I don't really care if the beer is a little darker.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I've seem some discussions (in other forums) where people stated they brewed with all the extract at flame-out on a regular basis (they also brewed a mix of all-grain and extract). I've also casually followed some of the "hop tea" related articles here and people seem to be happy with the results. Maybe it comes down to which hops are used.

My preference, with DME, is to use shorter boils, and the process makes it easier to add hops to wort (not water).