When is it time to transfer my flanders red to barrel?

[stephelton]

I brewed a Flanders Red last weekend and pitched wyeast's roeselare blend. It fermented vigorously and now the krauesen has fallen back. It's bubbling slowly. I saw a pellicle begin to form before I saw any krauesen (or I think I did) but I'm yet to see any now that fermentation has slowed.

In the meantime, I ordered a 5 gallon used whiskey barrel. It smells great (like whiskey) and it is leak free. It's currently topped off with water.

I'm wondering when I should transfer the flanders into the barrel...?

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

That barrel probably has too much whiskey and oak character left in it to put a beer in it for twelve or more months but the right time to rack to a barrel is after primary fermentation ends.

 

[stephelton]

That's not really what I wanted to hear, but I'm inclined to believe you. I might go ahead and throw it in the barrel and then make a second batch of flanders and not oak it. Then I can blend to get an appropriate level of oak and dilute the whiskey.

Should I wait until I see a pellicle form before I transfer it?

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

That's not really what I wanted to hear, but I'm inclined to believe you. I might go ahead and throw it in the barrel and then make a second batch of flanders and not oak it. Then I can blend to get an appropriate level of oak and dilute the whiskey.

Should I wait until I see a pellicle form before I transfer it?

You could brew some other beers and barrel age them to strip out some of the oak and whiskey flavor. A few days for the first batch or two will be enough to get a lot of character in a beer. As you strip it out you'll need to go weeks out but it's not necessary to strip out everything, especially if you're willing to blend with another batch.

You can transfer now. There's no reason to wait for a pellicle to form. A pellicle is just a response by the bacteria and/or brett to the amount of oxygen exposure. The bacteria and brett are already in the beer and getting to work. They will come along with your beer into the barrel. If you do decide to wait to rack the flanders red to the barrel for a few weeks a pellicle will probably form but you can just rack out from underneath it and you'll be fine.

 

[Calder]

I suspect you would only need to have it in the barrel for a few days to get decent oak character. It might be undrinkable if you leave it in there for a year. Sours are typically stored in aged barrels that do not contribute anything to the beer.

I've never used a barrel, but from reading about them with respect to sours, wood is more oxygen porous than HDPE plastic fermenters. Storing your sour in it for a long period might expose it to too much oxygen.

NOTE: A small barrel has a much larger surface area to liquid ratio than a large barrel. Also the smaller barrels have thinner wood, further increasing the transfer of oxygen.

As someone earlier noted, why not use it to add character to other beers.

 

[Montanaandy]

I brewed a Flanders Red last weekend and pitched wyeast's roeselare blend. It fermented vigorously and now the krauesen has fallen back. It's bubbling slowly. I saw a pellicle begin to form before I saw any krauesen (or I think I did) but I'm yet to see any now that fermentation has slowed.

In the meantime, I ordered a 5 gallon used whiskey barrel. It smells great (like whiskey) and it is leak free. It's currently topped off with water.

I'm wondering when I should transfer the flanders into the barrel...?

With respect to using the barrel immediately after whiskey has been in it, we do it all the time with Flanders Red (5 gal bourbon barrels sourced nearby). No need to put anything else in it first.
We love the funk that you get from the fresh whiskey barrel. Transfer after vigorous fermentation has subsided. You already pitched Rosie so you are good to go.

Once you have used it for a sour though that is all you can use it for for the life of the barrel because of the brett, etc. that are now into the wood.

 

[BryanThompson]

I agree. I recently tried Gilgamesh which is Uplands Flanders red. It has a very strong oak and bourbon flavor and is quite good.

 

[stephelton]

I've got some very different opinions here... Montanaandy, how long do you leave a Flanders on such a fresh barrel? I think I'll do the same and be prepared to blend a lot if it's overpowering.

 

[Montanaandy]

I've got some very different opinions here... Montanaandy, how long do you leave a Flanders on such a fresh barrel? I think I'll do the same and be prepared to blend a lot if it's overpowering.

It really comes down to how sour, funky, oaky, etc. you want the beer to be. Our general rule of thumb is 9-12 months. This also involves leaving some headspace in the barrel. Some who age in small barrels fill to the brim to prevent too much oxygen from getting to the beer. We dont'. As a rule we don't blend either although many do with fantastic results.

We basically barrel the FR, put the barrel in a dark corner, forget about it, remember about it a few months later ("hey whatever happened to that FR we brewed back in Feb.") and check it once or twice over a 9-12 month period.

When we are ready to keg the finished FR we try to have another batch ready to go in from primary so there is not a chance for the barrel to dry out. You can also blast it with hot water and then pour some bourbon into it if you don't have another batch ready at that point.

 

[stephelton]

Thanks, Montanaandy. I went ahead and transferred my FR. The water that had been keeping the barrel hydrated was very yellow-ish in color and smelled / tasted of whiskey. No surprise there...

I came to find that I only had about 3.75 gallons of FR, leaving the barrel with quite a bit of headspace. Looking back at my notes, my gravity came out a bit higher than anticipated (1.065 vs 1.057). I could top off with water, but were I to top off with a full 1.25 gallons, I'd wind up well below gravity (1.049 by my calculation).

It would seem my options are:

1) Leave as-is
2) Top off with water (and be under-gravity)
3) Partially top off with water (and have a smaller amount of headspace, would allow me to hit target gravity)
4) Top off with wort (DME, small all grain batch, or even a small version of the same recipe)
5) Top off with fermented wort

The recipe I'm using came straight from BYO: http://***********/stories/beer-styles/article/indices/11-beer-styles/659-flanders-red-ale -- the first recipe about half way down the page.

This is my first sour and first time using a barrel, so I have little experience to guide me. Any advice is appreciated.

 

[Hopper5000]

I have used those 5 gal used oak barrels before with great success. For the first beer that goes in it will take on the booze and the wood flavor fairly quickly and you probably want it in there for a maximum of 2 months. The reason being that there is more surface area that the beer is exposed to so it picks up flavor and potentially oxidizes a lot quicker. Approx 80% of the alcohol will get imparted into the beer the first time around.

Second time around will be less boozy flavor imparted and it might be a good time to add your sour beer in. Maybe even the 3rd beer you could add it in. The subsequent additions you couldleave for longer in IMHO, but I would taste often (maybe monthly if you are planning on going a long time) to avoid it getting too oxidized.

I have also heard of people sealing the barrels in parafin wax to try and avoid angel share and oxidation.

 

[Hopper5000]

I must not that I have used the with great success with non-sour beers, never tried making a sour one before.

As for the head space I would for sure fill that up with something. Brewing another batch would be preferable as you want the least amount of head space to avoid oxidation and such. There can be bacteria hanging around in that area too.

I'm no expert just sayin...

 

[stephelton]

Thanks for the input, Hopper5000. I'm not too worried about oxidation, because the acetobacter require oxygen to produce acetic acid. With that much headspace, though, I am a bit worried. That said, I'm leaning towards topping it off, but I'm not sure with what yet...

 

[Hopper5000]

Ah right, the acetic... well the only other real issue (from what I can think of) would be oxidation although that might be masked by the sour notes?

I would just brew more beer. Adding that much water in would probably be detrimental.

 

[Montanaandy]

Thanks, Montanaandy. I went ahead and transferred my FR. The water that had been keeping the barrel hydrated was very yellow-ish in color and smelled / tasted of whiskey. No surprise there...

I came to find that I only had about 3.75 gallons of FR, leaving the barrel with quite a bit of headspace. Looking back at my notes, my gravity came out a bit higher than anticipated (1.065 vs 1.057). I could top off with water, but were I to top off with a full 1.25 gallons, I'd wind up well below gravity (1.049 by my calculation).

It would seem my options are:

1) Leave as-is
2) Top off with water (and be under-gravity)
3) Partially top off with water (and have a smaller amount of headspace, would allow me to hit target gravity)
4) Top off with wort (DME, small all grain batch, or even a small version of the same recipe)
5) Top off with fermented wort

The recipe I'm using came straight from BYO: http://***********/stories/beer-styles/article/indices/11-beer-styles/659-flanders-red-ale -- the first recipe about half way down the page.

This is my first sour and first time using a barrel, so I have little experience to guide me. Any advice is appreciated.

This is a bit of unexplored territory for me in that I normally come fairly close (say within 1/2 a gallon at the most) to topping off the barrel because I aim for 6 gallons of wort in the kettle. To have less than 4 gallons in a 5 gallon barrel is a bit thin. I would be a little concerned with too much oxygen being introduced with all of that space. You could use an un-drilled stopper to try to create a tighter seal to reduce the oxygen and see what happens. I always use the wooden pegs that come with our barrels - this seems to allow the right amount of oxygen into the barrel so I don't know how well the stopper would work.

I personally would top off with fermented wort and certainly not water. If you can brew the same recipe again and add a portion of it, that to me would be optimal. You could brew another batch (say a solid 6 gallons), top off the barrel and age the remainder in a bucket or carboy. You could then blend them together if you wanted or keep them separate.

 

[stephelton]

Thanks again for the reply. I've been leaning that way the more I think about the problem. I think I'll spend the rest of the afternoon trying out a brew-in-a-bag on the stove. I've got the grains for most of the recipe, but not a whole lot of the specialty malts. Here's the original grain bill for 5 gallons, copied from the link in my earlier post:

5 lbs. 5 oz. (2.4 kg) Vienna malt
2 lbs. 8 oz. (1.1 kg) Pils malt
15 oz. (0.43 kg) aromatic malt
15 oz. (0.43 kg) CaraVienne malt
2 lbs. 2 oz. (0.96 kg) raw wheat
5.0 oz. (0.14 kg) special B malt-

I've got vienna, pils, raw wheat, and special b. I've also got some carapils that might help replace some of the sweetness in the caravienne.

I figure my hop bitterness is fine... the last thing I want to do is overdo the hops.

If I want to shoot for 1.057 gravity, and the full 1.25 gallons, I'll need some pretty light wort:

( (3.75 / 5.0) * 1.065) + ( (1.25 / 5.0) * x) = 1.057
(0.75 * 1.065) + (0.25 * x) = 1.057
(0.25 * x) = 1.057 - (0.75 * 1.065)
x = (1.057 - (0.75 * 1.065)) / 0.25
x = 1.033

1.25 gallons of 1.033 wort.

I'll just throw some dry yeast (safale s05) that I have laying around, let it ferment until the krauesen drops, and then top off the barrel with it. Sound like a safe plan?

 

[Montanaandy]

Thanks again for the reply. I've been leaning that way the more I think about the problem. I think I'll spend the rest of the afternoon trying out a brew-in-a-bag on the stove. I've got the grains for most of the recipe, but not a whole lot of the specialty malts. Here's the original grain bill for 5 gallons, copied from the link in my earlier post:

5 lbs. 5 oz. (2.4 kg) Vienna malt
2 lbs. 8 oz. (1.1 kg) Pils malt
15 oz. (0.43 kg) aromatic malt
15 oz. (0.43 kg) CaraVienne malt
2 lbs. 2 oz. (0.96 kg) raw wheat
5.0 oz. (0.14 kg) special B malt-

I've got vienna, pils, raw wheat, and special b. I've also got some carapils that might help replace some of the sweetness in the caravienne.

I figure my hop bitterness is fine... the last thing I want to do is overdo the hops.

If I want to shoot for 1.057 gravity, and the full 1.25 gallons, I'll need some pretty light wort:

( (3.75 / 5.0) * 1.065) + ( (1.25 / 5.0) * x) = 1.057
(0.75 * 1.065) + (0.25 * x) = 1.057
(0.25 * x) = 1.057 - (0.75 * 1.065)
x = (1.057 - (0.75 * 1.065)) / 0.25
x = 1.033

1.25 gallons of 1.033 wort.

I'll just throw some dry yeast (safale s05) that I have laying around, let it ferment until the krauesen drops, and then top off the barrel with it. Sound like a safe plan?

Sounds like a good plan.

 

[Hopper5000]

ya souunds like a good plan. Just an FYI too, depending on how long you age it you might want to top it off periodically. I feel like in my experience I lost maybe about a pint to a quart of liquid per month when I was aging. You could just not worry about it and accept the angel share too...

 

[DPlan00]

I need an update. I have a 5.5 gallon barrel I aged a beer in for two months after it had been emptied by the distillery and I was thinking of adding an FR to it. So, original poster, what did you do? What has happened to this beer? I am very interested to hear.

 

[stephelton]

I need an update. I have a 5.5 gallon barrel I aged a beer in for two months after it had been emptied by the distillery and I was thinking of adding an FR to it. So, original poster, what did you do? What has happened to this beer? I am very interested to hear.

Which part?

I ended up topping the barrel off with a small batch, as described.

The beer has a great brett aroma with lots of funk, but the flavor is a bit weak. Still a good bit of sweetness left and only some very mild sourness. It's still in the barrel, and I intend to replace it with a fresh batch in the next couple months. Despite being in the barrel for about 5 months now, it only has a hint of whiskey/oak to it.

 

[DeTech]

I purchased a fresh char'd oak barrel 1/2 a year ago I ran 4 batches through it and drank my fair share of whiskey water before I let it meet my belgiums.

It's all personal taste tho, just keep an eye on it, in that small of a barrel your oak favor can go pair shaped quickly. Sample daily.

 

[LakesideBrewing]

I'm bumping this thread up to see how the beer came out. I'm looking to transfer a pLambic into a Balcones Whisky barrel that I have used 4 times now. Hoping the OP is still active on this site.

-Mike

 

[stephelton]

I've had some more experience with barrel aged sours since starting this thread. What exactly are you interested in? I'd say in general moving to barrel should wait at least a week or two after primary to make sure the yeast do their thing and clean up, but I doubt you'll really screw anything up so long as you at least wait for your terminal gravity.

 

[LakesideBrewing]

My pLambic is about 2 months old now and has a nice pellicle on it. I guess I was just worried about moving the beer now into the barrel and breaking that pellicle. And also was curious how your beer turned out sitting in a small oak barrel for such a long time. Did it pick up too much oak?

 

[stephelton]

I imagine you'd be fine either way... but if it's doing fine as it is, I might let it sit. That beer is actually still in the barrel! It has some vanilla notes for sure, but doesn't seem overly oaky. I've been meaning to brew a replacement for it for a while now...