Wheatless Blue Moon, can I just use Pilsen?

[balrog]

My daughter liked my blue moon clone but has developed a wheat allergy. Not life threatening and not gluten, but an allergy to wheat.

If I use a generic Pilsen malt rather than white wheat malt, and not a floor malted bohemian flavorful pilsen, what can I expect? Honey notes? Too malty notes? Just use 2-row instead?

Thoughts?

 

[Wayne1]

Blue Moon is a wheat beer. The wheat is used to give the flavor and to lighten up the body. If you cannot use wheat, you could try to use flaked rice. Any of the American 2 row blends would be fine for the base barley. I tend to prefer Rahr's Standard 2 row. Along with flaked oats, this could present some lautering problems. Make sure to use lots of rice hulls.

 

[balrog]

Blue Moon is a wheat beer. The wheat is used to give the flavor and to lighten up the body. If you cannot use wheat, you could try to use flaked rice. Any of the American 2 row blends would be fine for the base barley. I tend to prefer Rahr's Standard 2 row. Along with flaked oats, this could present some lautering problems. Make sure to use lots of rice hulls.

Thanks, @Wayne1 . I had made it several times years ago per your helpful hints in “the” thread, so I appreciate the help with this nonstandard issue

 

[MrPowers]

Subbing flaked rice is not going to get you anywhere close to blue moon. It will be closer to a spiced bud light.

Your best bet would be to sub the wheat for Pale 2-Row or Pilsner malt with a smaller portion of flaked barley, rye and/or oats. It won’t be the same, but it will be a lot closer than using rice.

If your daughter is only allergic to certain strains of wheat (like some people with nut allergies are only allergic to certain nuts), you could try looking into using a different strain or relative of wheat such as Spelt or Triticale. Obviously, make sure you have this ok’d by a doctor before you try it.

Spelt is an “ancient” relative in the wheat family. It is genetically different than most wheat grown today. If it is an option, Weyermann makes a commercially available spelt malt that would be the closest available substitute for wheat.

Triticale is a modern hybrid of wheat and rye that some breweries (Trillium) have started using. It’s a bit harder to find in malt form, but some craft malt houses have started offering it as an option. I have not used this malt myself, but I expect the flavor to be somewhere in between wheat and rye. It would probably be best to cut 50/50 2-Row/Triticale for the sub.

 

[filthyastronaut]

I think your best bet is using a combo of flaked oats, rye, and/or barley. Wheat definitely does not lighten up the body, if anything it contributes to a fuller mouthfeel, adding proteins and potentially dextrins. Rice will only contribute extract, and will lighten up the body, but that's not what you want here.

 

[balrog]

Update the first: I used
3.5# Dingeman's Pilsen
1.0# Briess Oat Flakes
42oz Store brand "Instant Oats" (total oats 3.625#)
2.25# flaked rice (Ritebrew, unmarked as to brand)
0.5# Briess Carapils

Near RO water (3 Ca, 6 Na, 7 Cl, 1 SO4)
25 qt, BIAB, add
1.4gm Gypsum
3.8gm CaCl
1.2gm Epsom
0.2gm NaCl
1.7 ml 85% Phosphoric Acid

Mash 150F, 45M, Added 2 tsp Amylase Enzyme Formula (BrewersFriend showed diastatic potential around 38), stir at 30, take pH sample, cool to room temp, 5.72 pH measured (holy cow)

And then I lifted the bag. I have never seen a stuck sparge with BIAB until this. What a viscous, goopy mess. Drained FOREVER. Thick, slimy, ick. Makes you want to try it, I know.

Boiled 30m, adding 2oz Julius 6.6% alpha acid at 10m, 1/2oz coriander and 1oz sweet orange peel at 5m. Currently fermenting with WY1007 at 60F. But if it stays thick, it's drain food. I'll let you know. I know you're all losing sleep, awaiting the outcome with fevered anticipation.

 

[Wayne1]

It is good you gave it a try. I did not give you any ratios so you could figure it out for yourself.

I believe you went a bit in the wrong direction. Blue Moon is usually 50% 2 row, 40% wheat and 10% oats. I feel you went a bit too far with the oats. I also did not see any rice hulls being used. With flaked oats and rice, rice hulls are mandatory.

Try using 80% pils malt, 10% flaked rice and 10% flaked oats with rice hulls. That should lauter quite a bit easier. The flaked rice should lighten the body and color a bit, over using a larger percentage of barley.

Thanks for getting back with the results of your experiment and good luck with your next version.

 

[balrog]

Thanks. The experiment will continue!

 

[balrog]

@Wayne1 , interesting outcome for trial #1. It's down to 1.009, WY1007 at 60F, ramp to 68F after exotherm day 3 or so.
While silky, it is not soupy, nor too thick at this point, pre-carbonation. The coriander I recently got a metric crapton of was far less potent than what I'd used in the past so the coriander is really hard to find, while the orange came through more. It'll be carbed in a few days, but I don't think it's destined for the sewers, at least directly, at this point.

 

[Wayne1]

Thanks for the update.

The spicing will always be the hard part because sources are almost always different. That last few times I made a Blue Moon type beer, I used whole coriander sourced from a local spice shop and ground it just before adding it to the kettle.

I have not been fond of any of the orange peel available from most homebrew suppliers. There is always too much pith which will add bitterness. If I make another version, I am thinking of trying out dried tangerine zest. Here is one link for it: https://www.spicesinc.com/p-6060-dried-tangerine-peel.aspx

Cheers,
Wayne

 

[balrog]

Thanks for the update.

The spicing will always be the hard part because sources are almost always different. That last few times I made a Blue Moon type beer, I used whole coriander sourced from a local spice shop and ground it just before adding it to the kettle.

I have not been fond of any of the orange peel available from most homebrew suppliers. There is always too much pith which will add bitterness. If I make another version, I am thinking of trying out dried tangerine zest. Here is one link for it: https://www.spicesinc.com/p-6060-dried-tangerine-peel.aspx

Cheers,
Wayne

I know what you mean about spices. My coriander is 12oz Badia whole from Amazon, used for the first time this batch, but now I know to adjust. I chase repeatability, but to "real" brewers that is a little laughable as I make at most 30-35 batches a year. The orange I used was a 1# Brewcraft, vac sealed after ea use, about half gone now, but it is the same ea batch. I tend more to the coriander flavor than orange anyway. Thanks for the tangerine idea & link, that sounds like an exceptional idea.

[Edit to add hop note] Since I was experimenting with Mighty Ax Julius hops, some of that orange is likely from them.