Wheat/Weisse/Hefeweizen recipe help

[dstar26t]

I've seen all the recipes in the database but they lack flavor descriptions. I'm looking for a hefeweizen style all-grain recipe that's fuity, crisp and has a slight citric snap to it...NO BANANAS though. Can someone point me in the right direction please?

 

[wwest]

I've seen all the recipes in the database but they lack flavor descriptions. I'm looking for a hefeweizen style all-grain recipe that's fuity, crisp and has a slight citric snap to it...NO BANANAS though. Can someone point me in the right direction please?

(damnit...spelled hefeweizen wrong in the title!)

I've made several all-grain hefes. Here are my general guidelines for getting something authentic.

-at least 50% wheat in the grist
-use a real weizen yeast
-ferment at 65F to avoid banana flavor (but you can't have 'estery/fruity' w/o some banana flavor unless you add extracts or something)
-do a decoction or two during the mash
-use a noble hop and go easy on it (almost no flavor/aroma hopping).
-don't bother with irish moss or finings
-don't bother racking to secondary

 

[dstar26t]

Instead of decoction, can I step mash to get the same results? What temps to hit?

WY3068 yeast?

 

[wwest]

Instead of decoction, can I step mash to get the same results? What temps to hit?

WY3068 yeast?

Yikes, i forgot - a 15 minute rest at 100F is crucial to avoid a stuck mash. Throw in a couple handfuls of rice hulls to be safe. A thinner mash is OK, i.e a 3/2 ratio (quarts/lbs).

I last used:

15-20 min @ 100F
15-20 min @ 120F

...then I did a double decoction. A basic sacch rest should work though, e.g.

30-60 min @ 152F

then 10 min @ 168F. I wouldn't skip mash out.

I do prefer the weihenstephaner smack pack (WY3068) for authenticity.

 

[ChuckMoney]

I've seen all the recipes in the database but they lack flavor descriptions. I'm looking for a hefeweizen style all-grain recipe that's fuity, crisp and has a slight citric snap to it...NO BANANAS though. Can someone point me in the right direction please?

(damnit...spelled hefeweizen wrong in the title!)

What you'd be looking for is a normal wheat beer recipe, but replace the german/bavarian/belgian yeast with an american wheat yeast like whitelabs, or even replace it all together with an all purpose ale yeast like danstar nottingham or whitelabs american ale blend/east coast ale/california or california v ale, I've used all of these in my american wheat with great results. I ended with a beer similar to bells oberon with the east coast ale yeast, and thats kind of what i was aiming for. I also use citrusy american hops like cascade and centennial in small proportions in my wheat beer as well.

Edit: I just read that oberon uses saaz hops, I guess its not "just like it" but close enough for me and thats really all that matters.

 

[Dr Malt]

If you don't want banana flavor don't use a hefe yeast. Use something like Wyeast 1056 (American ale yeast). I use it for my summer wheat beer and it gives a low fruity, dry crisp character to the beer.

Dr Malt

 

[HairyDogBrewing]

.... fuity, crisp and has a slight citric snap to it...NO BANANAS ....

Most of the hefe's I've tasted have at least a little banana.
Maybe you should look for an American Wheat recipe.

+1 on warmer fermentation = more bananas.

I might use something other than WLP300 in my next batch,
probably WLP100.

 

[dstar26t]

I had Victory's Mad King Weisse the other day and liked that a lot for a lighter beer. I'm assuming they used a hefe yeast because there was banana but very very muted.

 

[wwest]

http://www.hbd.org/brewery/library/EstFormAW0696.html

...interesting bit about aeration severely inhibiting ester production. That would suggest that if you did use a hefe yeast, you should aerate heavily before pitching AND ferment at the low end of the temp range. You could also use a non-weizen yeast, but then it's off-style... which may or may not matter to you.

 

[dstar26t]

Wyeast also states on their website that increasing pitch rates reduces ester production.

 

[Piotr]

I'm looking for a hefeweizen style all-grain recipe that's fuity, crisp and has a slight citric snap to it...NO BANANAS though.

I like to add some rye malt to hefeweizen, it gives pleasent tartness.
If you don' like bananas (what's wrong with bananas ), try to overhelm the flavour with others: the tartness (rye!), or the clove - make ferulic break at ~42C.

 

[dstar26t]

or the clove - make ferulic break at ~42C.

Huh???

And what percentage of rye gives a hint of tartness? Other than real bananas, I really don't like the flavor...such as in gum, pudding or hefeweizens.

 

[Piotr]

And what percentage of rye gives a hint of tartness? Other than real bananas, I really don't like the flavor...such as in gum, pudding or hefeweizens.

here:
http://www.beertools.com/html/recipe.php?view=7078
you have my best recipe for rye-hefeweizen

The ferulic-acid-rest you should make as first, at ~104-110F (damn, I can't get used to those fahrenheits ), it promotes the creation a ferulic-acid, which is later converted by weizen yeast into wonderful clove flavour.

 

[ohiobrewtus]

If you want to get away from the bananas you could try using WLP320 or WLP380.

 

[Piotr]

Other than real bananas, I really don't like the flavor...such as in gum

Wait a second, you said gum? Maybe you have mistaken the great banana flavour with the puckery bubble-gum flavour that you get, when you ferment weizens in too high temperatures?

 

[dstar26t]

Any banana flavor at all in a beer kinda turns me off.

Wow, thanks for the recipe.
How about adding some orange and lemon zest? Of will the hefe yeast add that itself?

 

[Piotr]

How about adding some orange and lemon zest?

Maybe you should consider brewing a belgian-style wheat beer (witbier). I think you might like it.

 

[BarleyWater]

You could also hop with an American citrusy hop for a citrus hint. I did one that turned out well.

Instead of a decoction which hefes are supposed to be in need of, I have heard you can add a small bit of melanoiden malt to mimic the flavor produced by a decoction, then mash as usual.

 

[homebrewer_99]

Any banana flavor at all in a beer kinda turns me off...

Then you don't want a Hefe Weizen. You want an American Wheat.

 

[BrewDoc_Md]

I made a simple extract Hefe with Wyeast 3068 fermented at 66-68F for 2 weeks and was dissappointed I didn't get much banana/fruity flavor.

 

[beesy]

are you looking for a true hefe or an american wheat? if amer, wheat, dude, had a good recipe for a watermelon wheat. i did 10 gal, in 2 5-gal batches at different times, slightly modified his recipe and they were great.

 

[dstar26t]

I was under the impression that a hefeweizen yeast would add much more flavor than an ale yeast. If I can control the banana by using the tricks posted in this thread, I'll definitely enjoy it.
Thanks for everyone's help!

 

[Piotr]

Banana flavour it is an ester (isoamyl acetate), and AFAIK the clove flavour is not. If you discourage the yeast growth, you will minimize the ester production. That means, you should overpitch, but not too much and moderately oxygenate the wort. Fermentation should also be in lower range of temperatures.
In theory that may help, but I don't guarantee, I have never tried it. I like bananas

 

[BarleyWater]

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That's the best advice your gonna get when it comes to controlling the yeast. Check www.mrmalty.com to see how much yeast you should pitch, then overdo it just slightly.

 

[dstar26t]

What would happen if I over pitch by a lot? I do that with lagers but that yeast settles out nicely by the end.
Mr. Malty shows a 1.79 Liter starter for the recipe so I should do a 2.5L?

 

[Piotr]

What would happen if I over pitch by a lot? I do that with lagers but that yeast settles out nicely by the end.
Mr. Malty shows a 1.79 Liter starter for the recipe so I should do a 2.5L?

Wise books say, that underpitching and high wort O2 levels boost ester formation. However same thing happens in poorly oxygenated wort. Overpitching seems not be be a big issue int the field of esters, so you may do the starter as big as you want.
Temperature of fermentation is more important.

 

[Piotr]

Browsing WLP leaflet I've found this:
WLP830 - large clove and phenolic aroma and flavour, with minimal banana.
Looks like something for you.

 

[dstar26t]

Browsing WLP leaflet I've found this:
WLP830 - large clove and phenolic aroma and flavour, with minimal banana.
Looks like something for you.

cool, thanks. I think you meant WLP380 though.

 

[waterse]

+1 on the belgian Wit. If you want a tart citrus note then the bitter orange and coriander in a belgian wit might suit you.

 

[Kaiser]

I found that decoction and protein rests are not necessary anymore even for Weissbier. I have successfully brewed them skipping that rest. In 2004, only 40% of the Weissbier breweries in Germany used decoction. Given the existing trend, this number might be lower now. Especially the big ones (whose beers you can get here) and now predominatly using infusion mashing for their Weissbiers. I still brew many of my Weissbiers with decoction though. It helps with getting to the various rests when mashing in a cooler.

The ferulic acid rest (45C/113F) helps in bringing out the clove, but to do it properly the mash pH needs to be above 5.7. Add acid malt after that rest to bring it down again. But even w/o this rest you get clove if the yeast is right. I found that WY3068/WLP300 and WLP351 are good producers of the clove character. The WLP351 seems less fruity.

To suppress the esters you need to pitch low (60-64F) and ferment cold (63 – 66F is a good range) and aerate/pitch as you would for other ales. I do however find conflicting information on the affect of aeration and pitching rate and their affect on the ester production. Some sources say higher pitching rates increase esters but others report the opposite.

Kai