Wheat flour

[ginger_beer]

I'm working on doing my first Witbier and have been reading how un-malted wheat malt gives a witbier a better flavor. So my LHBS does not carry un-malted wheat malt so I was thinking about using wheat flour in my mash and doing a infusion mash or doing a cereal mash and adding it back to my main mash. Can someone give me some hints,I'm not sure really what I should do?

Thanks

 

[ancientmariner52]

Flour + water = wallpaper paste. I think your best bet might be cracked wheat from the grocery or health food store. You'll need to boil it or do a cereal mash to gelatinize the starch, otherwise conversion will take forever.

No, I haven't tried this, but I believe I will. Thanks for the question!

 

[wilserbrewer]

I make a spaghetti wheat beer using over cooked spaghetti in the mash...as spaghetti is nothing more than raw wheat. Works well ime

 

[BigEd]

Flaked wheat is something your LHBS should carry if it does not. This is the unmalted wheat ingredient in a witbier.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Just cook the flour in some water to gelitanize and go for it!! I've wondered about this more than a few times.

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

+1 for flaked wheat. I just did a wit with 50/50 Belgian pale/flaked wheat. It worked great and the flavor is spot on.

 

[Ninoid]

I watched this video and try less than 10% of white wheat flour in BIAB Witbier. Direct in mash and this not work for me. It stuck into the balls and did not raise the OG or any other visible benefit.

 

[Miraculix]

I biab a 40% whole spelt wheat flour beer with no issues. No boiling necessary.

However, non-biab could be tricky, stuck sparges might be an problem to account for.

 

[Ninoid]

I biab a 40% whole spelt wheat flour beer with no issues. No boiling necessary.

However, non-biab could be tricky, stuck sparges might be an problem to account for.

This is all purpose soft wheat flour that usually use for bake bread?

 

[Miraculix]

This is all purpose soft wheat flour that usually use for bake bread?

No, it was a whole grain wheat flour of the spelt variety, which is the granddad of modern day wheat. But it should be comparable to normal wheat flour.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Flaked wheat and torrefied wheat are both unmalted. Your LHBS should carry at least one.

If not, try a healthfood store for wheat flakes (ones that look like rolled oats, not the crunchy breakfast cereal type).

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I just checked my local healthfood store (website) - wheat flakes are half the price of my LHBS! I know where I'll get them from next time.

 

[IslandLizard]

I just checked my local healthfood store (website) - wheat flakes are half the price of my LHBS! I know where I'll get them from next time.

Similar for flaked oats, especially store brands in the supermarket.

Back in the days, on the bottom shelf you could always find (large) bags with various grains, whole, milled, cracked, rolled. Now they have whole aisles dedicated to huge colorful boxes containing more air than (sugary) product. I always think the boxes themselves cost more than their content.

Back to the year-old topic.
Gelatinization of wheat flour is 124–140°F (51–60°C). So as long as you make an emulsion of it and add that to the mash it should convert fine. With larger raw (flaked or flour) grain percentages, a 15-20' beta-glucanase/protein rest at 121F will cut down on the gumminess. Maybe raise that slowly to 131F when using flour.

 

[z-bob]

I have used wheat flour a couple of times. When I added it directly to the mash, even tho' it should gelatinize at mash temperatures I got really poor conversion. Next time I did a cereal mash -- I cooked the flour in a gallon of the strike water. Whisk the flour into the water, along with a big handful of ground pale malt. Start cooking, and when it gets to 150 degrees turn the heat off and let it rest there a few minutes. Then continue heating (I went rather slowly from 150 to 170) and bring it to a boil. You will be amazed at how thin the gruel is; that's because of the malt. If you leave out the malt you will end up with wallpaper paste that sticks to the pan and burns.

I just used all-purpose flour. Not sure if whole wheat might taste better. I may try that next time.

If you want torrified wheat, check the supermarket for big bags of Malt-O-Meal puffed wheat cereal. I think they make an unsweetened version.

 

[Ninoid]

Maybe with cereal mash wheat flour can convert, but direct in mash not work for me. Perhaps I notice the difference in the appearance of beer when fermentation is complete compared to beer without flour.

 

[wilserbrewer]

I’ve never brewed with wheat flour, but I have mashed overcooked thin spaghetti 40-60 w/ barley many times w success.

Most spaghetti is 100% Durham wheat.

 

[mashpaddled]

Check health food stores. Most carry unmalted wheat.

 

[z-bob]

I’ve never brewed with wheat flour, but I have mashed overcooked thin spaghetti 40-60 w/ barley many times w success.

Most spaghetti is 100% Durham wheat.

I've done that too. But I used overcooked soggy elbow macaroni. Works great. (use the uncooked dry weight in the recipe)

 

[@RoyalGallon]

I used to work at the Horlicks factory in the UK. (If you’ve not heard of it Horlicks is a malted milk powdered drink).

The process started off mashing malted barley and wheat flour together to make wort, we then added milk and dried the liquid into a powder.

The mash process was actually a continuous set up mixing the grist with water and pumping through holding tubes at 55/63/80C. The grist make up was 70% wheat flour 30% malted barley - there was plenty of dp in the barley to convert the starch to sugar.

Unfortunately the factory has recently closed but as part of the celebrations of its history we got our local brewery to make a beer using the grist ratio and ingredients we used for Horlicks - it came out great!

 

[Ninoid]

I’ve never brewed with wheat flour, but I have mashed overcooked thin spaghetti 40-60 w/ barley many times w success.

Most spaghetti is 100% Durham wheat.

This is some form of cereal mash, but without barley malt.
I read that it was enough to cook 20 minutes flour, without cereal mash with the barley malt, and hot was mixed with the other malt in the main mash.

 

[z-bob]

I read that it was enough to cook 20 minutes flour, without cereal mash with the barley malt, and hot was mixed with the other malt in the main mash.

That will work, but it's a lot easier if you add some malt when you cook the flour. Without the malt, you end up with a thick paste that will stick to the pan and try to burn.

 

[z-bob]

Thread necro alert! I just did a brew with 50% pilsner malt and 50% unbleached all-purpose wheat flour. I did not cook the wheat first, just mixed it in with the malt and mashed-in at 150°F. Efficiency was very good. I did not do an iodine test; the yeast I used is diastaticus and will eventually ferment any starch that make it through the mashing process. (but the gravity was high enough I don't think any starch survived into the boil) I don't know what happened several years ago when I tried to use wheat flour in a mash. But I might be adding a small amount of flour to most of my brews from here on out to help with body and head retention. (wheat has a lot of protein, and it's much cheaper than carapils or chit malt)

 

[Ninoid]

Thread necro alert! I just did a brew with 50% pilsner malt and 50% unbleached all-purpose wheat flour. I did not cook the wheat first, just mixed it in with the malt and mashed-in at 150°F. Efficiency was very good. I did not do an iodine test; the yeast I used is diastaticus and will eventually ferment any starch that make it through the mashing process. (but the gravity was high enough I don't think any starch survived into the boil) I don't know what happened several years ago when I tried to use wheat flour in a mash. But I might be adding a small amount of flour to most of my brews from here on out to help with body and head retention. (wheat has a lot of protein, and it's much cheaper than carapils or chit malt)

I don't know how you achieved that you don't get balls of flour? Maybe you kept stirring?

 

[z-bob]

I don't know how you achieved that you don't get balls of flour? Maybe you kept stirring?

I mixed the flour with the malt before I added it to the water. I did get dough balls (they looked like dumplings) but I smashed them with the paddle. It took a while to get them all.

 

[Ninoid]

I'm thinking of brewing Witbier and using plain white flour for that, so I came across this old post. Since the Cereal Mash is quite complicated for me to make in my conditions, I plan to use the z-bob method and dry mix well half of the pilsner malt and half of the wheat flour and make a standard mash. I would use Belle Saison yeast (diastaticus).
Have you tried it a few times and with what success?
Has anyone else tried this?

 

[z-bob]

Have you tried it a few times and with what success?

I've only done it the one time. Squeezing the bag to try to get the wort out took a while; that's maybe why I haven't revisited it. But I intend to do it again.

 

[Miraculix]

I'm thinking of brewing Witbier and using plain white flour for that, so I came across this old post. Since the Cereal Mash is quite complicated for me to make in my conditions, I plan to use the z-bob method and dry mix well half of the pilsner malt and half of the wheat flour and make a standard mash. I would use Belle Saison yeast (diastaticus).
Have you tried it a few times and with what success?
Has anyone else tried this?

Google "miraculix the forbidden ale". I've done a 30% Pilsner, 70% spelt flour beer. No cereal mash needed if using flour. But you will need to massage your bag to drain it.

... That sounds wrong.

Edit: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/hazy-cheapskate-miraculix-forbidden-ale.710855/


Btw. I totally have to brew that one again. It was GREAT. One of my best beers so far.

 

[Ninoid]

Encouraged by your good experiences, I seriously want to brew a Witbier with half pilsner and half wheat flour in one of the next batch. For hops, I would take Magnum for FWH.

 

[Miraculix]

Encouraged by your good experiences, I seriously want to brew a Witbier with half pilsner and half wheat flour in one of the next batch. For hops, I would take Magnum for FWH.

I'll be brewing something like a pilsner with this grist soon. That should be awesome. A clean yeast and just some noble hops should result in a great beer too.

 

[Ninoid]

I would most likely use Belle Saison, as that is my yeast of choice, and I would also add a little crystal malt (about 5%) for color.

 

[Miraculix]

I would most likely use Belle Saison, as that is my yeast of choice, and I would also add a little crystal malt (about 5%) for color.

Never tried it with belle, but should be good! I probably would use just a little bit of black malt or roasted barley instead of the crystal though.

 

[Ninoid]

Never tried it with belle, but should be good! I probably would use just a little bit of black malt or roasted barley instead of the crystal though.

Yes, perhaps roasted malt is a better choice that will minimally affect the flavor, which is already rich and thick. I have Carafa special type 3, so I would put it up to 50 grams.

 

[IslandLizard]

Never tried it with belle, but should be good!

Correction, replied to the wrong post(er).

I would most likely use Belle Saison, as that is my yeast of choice,

At what temps?

I noticed Belle being quite neutral (and slow) at low ferm temps.
I've always used WY3944 for Wits at 70-72F.

 

[Ninoid]

Correction, replied to the wrong post(er).

At what temps?

I noticed Belle being quite neutral (and slow) at low ferm temps.
I've always used WY3944 for Wits at 70-72F.

Since I have no control over the fermentation temperature, which is why I use that yeast most of the time, the fermentation temperature is around 25'C most of the year, but in the summer it can be up to 33'C, while in the winter it drops to 20'C.

 

[IslandLizard]

Since I have no control over the fermentation temperature, which is why I use that yeast most of the time, the fermentation temperature is around 25'C most of the year, but in the summer it can be up to 33'C, while in the winter it drops to 20'C.

Ah, I see why Belle is your yeast of choice, especially during the warmer season.

Just in case you want to use different yeasts and/or control ferm temps somewhat, here's an idea of a possible workaround I've been using.
When I don't have space in the ferm fridge, I've been using an (insulated) beverage cooler chest with cold water, doping it with a few frozen water bottles each day.

It fits two 6.5 gallon (~24 liter) brew buckets side by side. The whole setup is insulated (covered) with an old thick sleeping bag, and placed in the coolest place in the house (the lower level bathroom).

 

[Ninoid]

I did a small scale experiment to see how white wheat flour (for bread) behaves with a standard infusion mash and what performance I can expect.

I mashed 50% Munich malt (50 grams) and 50% white wheat flour (50 grams) in one liter of water for 50 minutes. I got OG=1.025 which is even
and more than expected and shows 1.037 potential of white wheat flour. I mixed malt and flour dry and pour it in water at 75'C. At the beginning balls of flour started to form, but they broke after 15 minutes, as Miraculix mentioned.

This experiment shows that white wheat flour can be used to make wheat beer with high efficiency in standard infusion mash without Cereal Mash before.

 

[z-bob]

Since it works for wheat flour, do y'all think cornstarch is ground fine enough to skip cooking and just mix it dry in with the grist? I want to try it in a cream ale. I was planning to boil it in a gallon or two of the strike water but mixing it with the grain would be easier.

 

[Miraculix]

Since it works for wheat flour, do y'all think cornstarch is ground fine enough to skip cooking and just mix it dry in with the grist? I want to try it in a cream ale. I was planning to boil it in a gallon or two of the strike water but mixing it with the grain would be easier.

I wouldn't even think about boiling it. Just throw it in the mash. Pre-mix it with the rest of the grist dry to avoid starch clumps.

 

[G_robertus]

Since it works for wheat flour, do y'all think cornstarch is ground fine enough to skip cooking and just mix it dry in with the grist? I want to try it in a cream ale. I was planning to boil it in a gallon or two of the strike water but mixing it with the grain would be easier.

The only thing about corn is that the gelatinisation temperatures vary a lot depending on where you look. Some sources say 60 °C is fine, others mention 80-90 °C. This chart shows a large range as well. You'd have to try a small batch to see if your particular brand will easily gelatinise. I guess since it's in powder form and you don't have to work through a shell it'll at least take less time and energy than whole or cracked kernels.

 

[z-bob]

The only thing about corn is that the gelatinisation temperatures vary a lot depending on where you look. Some sources say 60 °C is fine, others mention 80-90 °C. This chart shows a large range as well. You'd have to try a small batch to see if your particular brand will easily gelatinise. I guess since it's in powder form and you don't have to work through a shell it'll at least take less time and energy than whole or cracked kernels.

I'm wondering if it even has to gel because the particles are so small; perhaps all they have to do is be wet for the enzymes to attack them.