What's your preferred mash pH target?

[Silver_Is_Money]

And does your preferred target mash pH change by style?

What mash pH range will you accept before resorting to adjustment?

 

[logdrum]

5.4 for pales & IPAs, 5.3 for cream ales & lagers. As long as it falls in the 5.2-5.6 range (for me 99.99% of the time) I simply note the discrepancy & adjust on the next similar brew.

 

[Warrenbic]

Shoot for a pH of 5.2-5.6, however let your sample get down to room temp before testing.

 

[d3track]

I shoot for 5.4 typically, that gives me an error of .1 either way that I feel I don't have to stress about. I'm at the point with adjusting water for mash ph where I'm trying to get a consistent result across multiple grain bills.

 

[day_trippr]

5.4

 

[Big Monk]

5.2 for all beers

 

[jmark]

5.2-5.3 for most beers... I like the crispness the lower pH gives to my pale ales in particular.

 

[JonM]

5.4. Maybe scooch it a little lower for things like Pilsner lager/patersbier/Hefeweizen, a little higher for stouts/porters, but 5.4 is a perfect happy medium.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

What have any of you discovered in regard to a correlation between mash pH and brewhouse efficiency? Is there a correlation here?

And is there a correlation between mash pH and perceived maltiness or mouth feel (body)?

 

[jmark]

Well, getting pH into the correct range does impact efficiency positively, but I can't say too much about the effects on mouthfeel and body except to the extent the flavor ions, sodium, chloride and sulfate affect those attributes AND pH.

 

[MagicMatt]

From everything I've read, the pH of the mash at mash temps should be 5.2 - 5.4. When cooled to ambient temps, this translates to a measurement of roughly 5.4-5.6.

So I aim for a cooled, ambient temp reading of 5.35-5.4 for my paler beers, and 5.5-5.55 for my darker beers (typically stouts).

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

5.2 for all beers

Is this as measured at the actual mash temperature, or at STP (roughly 70 degrees F.)?

 

[dmtaylor]

5.3 at STP, 5.1 at mash temp.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I'm afraid to put my pH meter into 152 degree wort, so I always cool down a sample. Should I be concerned about doing this? By the time I get it cooled down and tested I'm so far down the road to mash completion that my adjustments are likely not amounting to much. If I could take direct pH readings at 152 degrees my adjustments would be added much sooner.

 

[dmtaylor]

I measure mine directly. Just remember that reads low by about 0.2 at mash temperatures. The experts say that this can shorten the life of the gauge. I don't believe them. Also gauges are cheap these days, around $15 on Amazon, that's where I got mine. If you have a fancy $100 model then you might not want to wreck it... or you might just want to test a cheaper model and see how it compares! Should be right on the money if properly calibrated.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

From this websites calculator it looks like the difference is closer to 0.25 pH points.

https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/PhTempCorrection.php

 

[NTexBrewer]

I'm afraid to put my pH meter into 152 degree wort, so I always cool down a sample. Should I be concerned about doing this? By the time I get it cooled down and tested I'm so far down the road to mash completion that my adjustments are likely not amounting to much. If I could take direct pH readings at 152 degrees my adjustments would be added much sooner.

A quick way to cool down a sample is to have 3 or 4 shot glasses in the freezer. Collect your sample and then pour your sample from one shot glass to the next. I did this last week and it cooled my sample down quickly. I've got thick shot glasses so I'm not too concerned about having one crack but I guess this could happen.

I have never adjusted my mash water on the fly. I just note what the pH is and then make adjustments for future beers.

 

[dmtaylor]

If you do want to cool some wort to measure at STP, I'll bet it would cool fastest by ladeling some onto a dinner plate, let cool for like 5 minutes at room temp or in the fridge, then pour into a shot glass. Surface area, baby. I might have to try this on my next batch.

 

[bonecitybrewco]

5.45 at room temp for IPA's. 5.3 for lighter beers and 5.5 for darker.

 

[The_Bishop]

5.2 for all beers

This 'one size fits all' is incorrect.

A big, roasty stout will be tasty at 5.4-5.5, maybe even bump it to 5.6 if there's a lot of roasted malt.

It will be a sharp acrid mess at 5.2.

PH is a flavor tool when kept in the correct range, much like brewing salts. And, much like brewing salts, there's no 'one size fits all' answer.

 

[Big Monk]

This 'one size fits all' is incorrect.



A big, roasty stout will be tasty at 5.4-5.5, maybe even bump it to 5.6 if there's a lot of roasted malt.



It will be a sharp acrid mess at 5.2.



PH is a flavor tool when kept in the correct range, much like brewing salts. And, much like brewing salts, there's no 'one size fits all' answer.

I use 5.2 for all beers, roast or otherwise with zero issues. So, for me, it IS one size fits all.

 

[The_Bishop]

*shrug*

Whatever works for you. Just stop telling everyone that your way is the only way and making broad statements. That sort of thing can confuse some of the newer brewers.

 

[Big Monk]

*shrug*

Whatever works for you. Just stop telling everyone that your way is the only way and making broad statements. That sort of thing can confuse some of the newer brewers.

The question was, "What is YOUR preferred mash pH target?"

My response was, "5.2 for all beers"

How is that telling someone my way is the only way? The OP solicited opinions and I gave mine. I don't think what I said was confusing at all.

 

[The_Bishop]

You may want to refer to Brun Water's web page.

Here's an excerpt:

Its notable from the graphic that the various enzymes work well across a range of pH. Therefore, targeting an exact mash pH is not critical to success. Achieving a mash pH that is within a tenth or two of the desired target can produce acceptable results. General suggestions for mashing pH targets are provided in the table below. As can be seen in the table, mashing pH has multiple impacts and the brewer can tailor the pH to enhance certain goals. Be aware that other factors beyond pH can affect character. The pH only helps achieve that character.


Suggested Mashing pH Targets (room-temp measurement)
Character
Target Mash pH Range

More fermentable wort with less body 5.3 to 5.4

Less fermentable wort with more body 5.4 to 5.5

More sharpness or tartness in beer 5.1 to 5.2

Lighter-colored beers 5.3 to 5.4

Darker-colored beers 5.4 to 5.6

Hop-focused beers 5.3 to 5.5

Malt-focused beers 5.2 to 5.3

My apologies to Martin if using this snippet is off limits.

 

[Big Monk]

You may want to refer to Brun Water's web page.

Here's an excerpt:


My apologies to Martin if using this snippet is off limits.

You may want to consult Wolfgang Kunze, an actual brewing scientist:

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1485222428.429275.jpg

Again, I'm not sure what your issue with my post is, other than the fact that it upsets you in some way, shape or form.

 

[The_Bishop]

I'd much rather work from my own experiences. In my experience, the same stout brewed with a mash PH of 5.3 had a harsh, bitter roasted malt flavor. It was a bit acrid, thin in mouthfeel and unpleasant to drink. The same beer, re-brewed with a mash PH target of 5.5 possessed a more rounded, smoother roast profile. It was a much more pleasant drinking experience.

I quoted Martin Brungard's work because it falls in line with what my experiences have shown me.

Some of the things highlighted in Kunze's work above have not proved out in any real-world brewing (both home scale and production) that I have ever witnessed. Extract yield in functionally the same as long as the PH is within the acceptable range. There was no perceptible difference in lautering. The flavor being mellower, fuller and softer? Not in my experience. Lower mash pH tends to be sharper, with a thinner mouthfeel. I've never had a measurable difference in attenuation, either. Case in point? The stout above. Original and Final gravity was the same in both beers despite the mash PH being different by .2.

The only issue I have with your post is you are promoting information that has been proven incorrect. Doesn't upset me in the slightest but I felt that anyone stumbling into this post that doesn't know better might be led astray by blanket statements.

 

[Big Monk]

I'd much rather work from my own experiences. In my experience, the same stout brewed with a mash PH of 5.3 had a harsh, bitter roasted malt flavor. It was a bit acrid, thin in mouthfeel and unpleasant to drink. The same beer, re-brewed with a mash PH target of 5.5 possessed a more rounded, smoother roast profile. It was a much more pleasant drinking experience.

I quoted Martin Brungard's work because it falls in line with what my experiences have shown me.

Some of the things highlighted in Kunze's work above have not proved out in any real-world brewing (both home scale and production) that I have ever witnessed. Extract yield in functionally the same as long as the PH is within the acceptable range. There was no perceptible difference in lautering. The flavor being mellower, fuller and softer? Not in my experience. Lower mash pH tends to be sharper, with a thinner mouthfeel. I've never had a measurable difference in attenuation, either. Case in point? The stout above. Original and Final gravity was the same in both beers despite the mash PH being different by .2.

The only issue I have with your post is you are promoting information that has been proven incorrect. Doesn't upset me in the slightest but I felt that anyone stumbling into this post that doesn't know better might be led astray by blanket statements.

What information might that be that is incorrect? The pH ranges taught to professional and amateur Brewers alike all over the world? If you think that the elements of brewing science and technique found in Kunze's work are inaccurate, I can't help you.

I'll tell you this much, if you need to raise your pH to avoid an acrid, thin and all together unpleasant beer, then you are treating the symptoms rather than the problem.

I've produced Stouts that were a joy to drink using 5.2. Has my anecdotal statement proven incorrect?

And another thing: the OP obviously isn't a new Brewer. Do you know how I know? Because we've been on some of the same posts talking about trying to apply the non-linear equations for estimating mash pH.

He asked an opinion and I gave it.

Here is a good one:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=526566

 

[The_Bishop]

Did you even read what I wrote? I explained what my own experiences have shown to be different than the bit of Kunze's writing that you posted.

Just because something's printed in a book it doesn't mean that it's irrefutable. The wonder of science is that theories get scrapped all the time when empirical evidence shows otherwise.

I never said that the 'pH ranges' were wrong. I stated that always targeting 5.2 was not the way to go.

As far as adjusting pH to change the flavor profile of a beer being 'treating the symptoms' instead of finding the problem? The problem *was* the pH.

You may enjoy your roasty beers mashed at 5.2 Wonderful! I'm glad you enjoy the fruit of your labors.

You're missing out on a range of flavor and mouthfeel adjustment by locking yourself to 5.2 all the time, despite what your favorite book may claim.

*shrug*

Suit yourself. I've stated my piece and we've derailed this thread enough.

 

[dmtaylor]

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

 

[Big Monk]

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

You know Dave, normally I think you're a bright guy, and occasionally a damn genius. Sometimes I kick myself right in my own ass for bickering on forums.