What's wrong with my system? (Co2 lines)

[thedrunkenirishman]

Frustrated as all get out…

Purchased a kegerator with a 5# Co2 tank…refitted the thing from a 1 tap tower to a 3 tap tower…purchased a 3 way manifold…refitted 2 of the 3 lines to hold homebrew (bought 2 ball lock cornies) with ball lock connectors and kept 1 line for commercial craft brew. Everything (including the tank) sits inside the cooler. The regulator is a single gauge model, so I’m not able to monitor how much is left in the tank.

Currently have all 3 taps going with a homebrew cider on #1, homebrew IPA on #2, and Magic Hat #9 on #3.

So here we go…tank came with some Co2 left in it…attached everything up (at that time, just the IPA) and line is working fine, but a week later the tank dies out. Odd I thought, but perhaps I just didn’t have a lot left. Off to refill…and reattach with a full tank and this time I buy the Magic Hat and have the cider ready….So all 3 lines up and running with a fully filled tank…and the tank dies a week and a half later…

Obviously, I must have a leak…every person I know from Co2 guy to homebrew friends say I need to soap the lines w/ a solution of ½ dish soap - ½ water and look for bubble beading, so I fill up the tank and soap all the air lines…think I found an issue right at the regulator / tank connection area (tightened, rechecked, and good), but no issues to manifold or coming out of manifold….you know where this is going, right?

I have another 1.5 – 2 solid weeks of tap pouring goodness…The only issue is that my IPA is no over carbed with all of the air checking…and I’ve turned off that line and have been burping the keg to get that under control…This morning I was planning on trying the IPA again…I goto turn the air on to the keg and hear nothing…check the regulator and no pressure to the system…

So I’ve gone through 2.5 freaking tanks of Co2 in roughly a month at this point. There is no obvious leak and wherever the leak is I can’t freaking find it…but it must be there.

What else can I tell you? The ID of the air lines are 1/4” and they run pretty long. For the homebrew lines, I have a barb to threaded connection (1/4) so I can easily swap gas / beverage ball locks for force carbing as needed. Beverage lines are 3/16. Magic Hat uses a Domestic Sankey coupler…soaped air line to Sankey and didn’t see any issues.

I’m so freaking frustrated at this point…Anyone have any pointers / tips to check system? Are there professionals I can reach out to locally that can check my system properly and find the error? Bonus points if you know someone in the Hartford, CT area…

 

[Setesh]

The cheap white gas quick disconnects can be really bad about leaking by the orings. If you can put a little side to side pressure on the gas ball lock and hear it hissing then I would recommend going with the better quality grey ball locks. You may also need to replace your gas post orings. If you have a way to submerge everything but the regulator gauges in water that is by far the easiest way to tell, but also the most difficult. The soapy water trick works for a lot of things, but not all. Also, the cheap aluminum distribution blocks can leak pretty badly. I went through 2 of them before getting one that was air tight.

 

[StalkingWilbur]

What kind of disconnects are you using? Some of the cheap ones really are good for nothing and can leak very easily, especially if its a tight fit and there's a little pressure from hoses pulling on the disconnects.



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[Bobb25]

No direct experience, yet, ...but just a thought here. Could you have a pinhole leak in one of the lines? ( You said they were fairly long ) Can you pressurize the lines and submerse them in a bucket of water and watch for bubbles ?
Bob

 

[thedrunkenirishman]

As far as air disconnects go, how can I tell a quality one? I went ot LHBS and bought them...guy didn't have options...he just had disconnects...

 

[thedrunkenirishman]

That is a great idea though on submerging in water...I can't get the whole system in obviously...but I can dunk the manifold into a bucket of water and see if any bubbles come....same for the ball lock disconnects...

 

[BadBeagleBrew]

What has worked for me is having everything hooked up outside the fridge and just listening for it. Even a small leak, do to the pressurization will make enough noise to be detectable.

 

[thedrunkenirishman]

I can probably dunk the whole line in...but would be surprised if there was a pinhole leak in the actual line....just bought new and line is fairly thick...Oh...if it ends up being that line, I will be pissed at my LHBS guy...

 

[thedrunkenirishman]

What has worked for me is having everything hooked up outside the fridge and just listening for it. Even a small leak, do to the pressurization will make enough noise to be detectable.

Trust me...I had my ear everywhere and lines are long enough for everything to be outside the cooler...I've heard the hissing sound and thought I corrected for it...I like the dunking in water idea though...can't fool water...

 

[jbaysurfer]

Good suggestions here. Especially the one where ball lock fittings can leak when they are in a fridge and hoses/etc puts pressure on them in a certain direction. Simply placing the fittings connected to the hose in water may not show this. You need to flex the hose on the barb (are your fittings barbed or threaded? That's another thing to check) while under water to see if that's the source.

Lastly it's suspicious to me that your IPA is overcarbed but your other beers are not? Corney's can leak too.

You definitely have a leak (somewhere in the system). I had to basically pull my entire kegerator out of the fridge guts and all to deal with a similar problem. My best advice for leak checking (without submerging) is not soap/water...it's starsan in a spray bottle. Good luck!

 

[Howhownow]

Over tightening of the keg post can cause the poppit not to seat correctly, which can lead to leaks. Also, keg lube can help a bit getting good seals. Check the seal of the keg lid itself.

 

[thedrunkenirishman]

Good suggestions here. Especially the one where ball lock fittings can leak when they are in a fridge and hoses/etc puts pressure on them in a certain direction. Simply placing the fittings connected to the hose in water may not show this. You need to flex the hose on the barb (are your fittings barbed or threaded? That's another thing to check) while under water to see if that's the source.

Lastly it's suspicious to me that your IPA is overcarbed but your other beers are not? Corney's can leak too.

You definitely have a leak (somewhere in the system). I had to basically pull my entire kegerator out of the fridge guts and all to deal with a similar problem. My best advice for leak checking (without submerging) is not soap/water...it's starsan in a spray bottle. Good luck!

I'm already thinking of ways to submerge the whole damn corny into a garbage can of water...Good idea to check the connectors with pressure / flex on the lines as well...I have a barb to thread connector, and then I thread on the grey ball lock...Talked into this setup by LHBS guy who said it makes force carbing easier (he is right on that front...a lot easier to deal with threads to swap air and beverage disconnects).

The cooler is a Haier model that is extremely tight for 3 logs...couple the fact that the regulator / tank sits in the back with screw that requires a flathead to dial up / down the pressure and there is a lot of jostling around when I have to make an adjutsment to system pressure...

Thinking of modding the cooler some more to run the tank outside of the cooler...to free a bit of space as well as keepign the keg connectors as undistrubed as possible...

 

[StalkingWilbur]

It's not going to solve your problem, but I would definitely sit your co2 outside of the fridge, it doesn't look as good but I think its much more practicable.

Regarding the disconnects, it might not be a 100% check but while its connected and you have the gas on grab the gas line and just tug on it a little to see if it seems like its leaking by putting some pressure on it. Keg lube on the o-rings could help fix that.

Is there a keg you've had connected every time it's leaked? If so, try not using that keg for a couple of weeks and see if that fixes it?



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[jbaysurfer]

I'm already thinking of ways to submerge the whole damn corny into a garbage can of water...Good idea to check the connectors with pressure / flex on the lines as well...I have a barb to thread connector, and then I thread on the grey ball lock...Talked into this setup by LHBS guy who said it makes force carbing easier (he is right on that front...a lot easier to deal with threads to swap air and beverage disconnects).

The cooler is a Haier model that is extremely tight for 3 logs...couple the fact that the regulator / tank sits in the back with screw that requires a flathead to dial up / down the pressure and there is a lot of jostling around when I have to make an adjutsment to system pressure...

Thinking of modding the cooler some more to run the tank outside of the cooler...to free a bit of space as well as keepign the keg connectors as undistrubed as possible...

Keep in mind, cornys are old, and fickle. I have 3 cornys that will leak from the gas in post when I remove the fitting, but a quick depression and release of the poppet valve will reseat it and they'll hold pressure just fine. Be thorough...(I know you have, and will) but trust me. You can and will fix it! I know your frustration first hand. But the good news is it's totally solveable.

 

[grittanomyces]

Make sure your O-rings look good on your corny kegs, but in my experience a common culprit is the regulator nut and thread connecting to the CO2 tank.

Can try to test that if you haven't already, but just wrapping the threads with teflon tape and then reattaching the regulator is a common fix.

 

[thedrunkenirishman]

Make sure your O-rings look good on your corny kegs, but in my experience a common culprit is the regulator nut and thread connecting to the CO2 tank.

Can try to test that if you haven't already, but just wrapping the threads with teflon tape and then reattaching the regulator is a common fix.

Good call there...That was where I thought the leak was after soaping the connections the 2nd time around...some teflon tape in general may help the connectors seal up in general...

Unfortunately, I won't be able to get to the gas place until tomorrow at lunch...so I need to wait until tomorrow night to hopefully get to the bottom of all this...thanks everyone for ideas...

 

[day_trippr]

Leak testing of gas assemblies before deployment really does pay off.

This manifold and gas drops had four different leaks, ranging from profound to sneaky, including a a less-than-tight swivel nut, a cracked nylon flare washer, an upside-down flare washer, and a loose QD cap. Had this made it into my second beer fridge unrepaired it would have been an instant headache...

Cheers!

[edit] I have no idea why that pic is showing up as a thumbnail that requires clicking.
Do we have a new paradigm at play here?

 

[MusicalBrewer]

I'm feeling your pain on this one. I got my first keezer last weekend (someone else had built it). I was eager to get some beer in it but I decided to pressure check it first. I'm glad I did because it leaked like crazy. It took me 4 days to sort it out. Here's my two cents.

I would recommend isolating portions of your system to find where the leak is. Try pressurizing the system minus the kegs. Turn on the CO2 just long enough to get pressure in the system. Then turn the CO2 off. If there's no leaks in this part of the system your pressure will hold. My gauges started losing pressure in less than an hour when I had leaks. You should know pretty quickly if you have leaks or not. Wherever you have shut off valves you can isolate this part of your system and check it quickly.

As others have stated, submerge test whatever you can! Make sure you hold each portion under water for a while though....not all leaks show bubbles instantly. I had some leaks that were really slow and took a minute to form just one bubble under water. Sounds like a minor issue, but it was enough to bleed off the pressurized system over just a few hours (It bled off the pressurized system using the test I stated above, not a full CO2 tank).

Good luck!

 

[403Brewer]

I'm having a similar issue with my system, just killed my second 5 lb tank in ~two 5 gal kegs. The lost tank I chalk up to not knowing what I'm doing as it was the first I think I had a loose connection to the regulator. This latest one though it was all good, had it hooked up to 2 kegs for over 3 weeks and then come back from a weekend away and its dead, there is a chance I just used it up it as I had 2 kegs on it (so 4 total for a 5 lb tank) but those first two I didn't really carb the beer with them, more just used it for dispensing. The gauge read over half full less than a week ago so I find it hard to believe I just used it up carbing.

In summary, 5 lbs used up on 2 kegs for serving, and 2 kegs for full carb and a bit of serving.
Any thoughts?

 

[zachattack]

Can try to test that if you haven't already, but just wrapping the threads with teflon tape and then reattaching the regulator is a common fix.

No, it's not really common, and it can actually cause further leaking. In a CGA320 connection, the washer (or integrated o-ring) makes the seal. The threads do not, and taping them can actually create additional leak points.

 

[ManhattanProjectBrewing]

Oh, boy… I JUST went through this very same ordeal. The problem wound up being four things. Two 15 LB cylinders later I found/corrected the issues. (Insert expletives here)

1.) One of my seven kegs’ (Yes I have a 7 tap system… Hence the frustration) pressure relief valves was loose (Corny style kegs). I simply tightened it down (After discovering the leak with star san) and was good to go…

2.) The regulator (Taprite) knob for some reason was leaking when in the “free” position. After pushing in the knob to “lock” it the system held pressure at the regulator (Everything else turned off, of course).

3.) The regulator dial has a weep hole at the back. Remove the little screws and remove the dial face. You will find a diaphragm; if that diaphragm is old, cracked, and/or worn out you will leak from the weep hole under the dial face… Fixed (With keg lube to recondition the thin rubber diaphragm).

4.) New beer. Yup, simply new beer that had not fully carbed. It is a real issue compounded by the other leaks… I was forever pressurizing the system and then turning off the gas at the cylinder head. No dice… The regulator would depressurize. Well, after fixing the above deficiencies and still having “issues” it donned on me that I had just hooked up two fresh (moderately carbed) ciders to the system. Once everything equalized (After 4 or so days at 37F) the problem mysteriously “solved itself.” Well, it was because the kegs were still carbing up. Lessons learned, beverages consumed, Bible used, and sanity saved…Sort’a. Cheers gang!

Best,

-JM

 

[b-boy]

You need to isolate each part of your system until you locate the leak. That way you won't waste an entire tank of CO2.

Use your manifold shutoffs to isolate parts of your gas system. Pressurize the system, isolate sections by shutting off your valves, turn off your gas, walk away for an hour, come back and check each section. Doing it this way you will only lose a small amount of CO2 until you locate the leak. Test each section from the regulator to the manifold to the gas connectors to the keg.

Once you locate the leaky section it should be fairly easy to determine what to fix using soap solution, keg lube, or just by replacing a few parts.

I'd recommand disconnecting your kegs initially. That way if your system holds, the kegs or the gas connectors are the obvious culprit. You can even dunk the kegs in water seperately to look for leaks there.

 

[Setesh]

3.) You will find a diaphragm; if that diaphragm is old, cracked, and/or worn out you will leak from the weep hole under the dial face… Fixed (With keg lube to recondition the thin rubber diaphragm).

I just want to emphasize that you don't want this diaphragm slathered with lube when you reassemble. Massage the lube in D) to revive the rubber, then wipe it all off. Then sanitize the diaphragm and apply a very thin coating of lube. It should look glossy but you shouldn't actually see any lube (clumps) on it. If you stick it in with too much lube on it D) then you will gum up the works and can lose the ability to make small adjustments in pressure.

 

[thedrunkenirishman]

I want to thank everyone. Not only for the tips to look for, but sharing the war stories as well. As with most things homebrew / beer related, the info out there is cryptic, conflicting, and made to seem easier than it ends up being. Even the manual that came with the Haier kegerator basically gave little to no advice on what to do (understand they are not going to provide advice on force carbing, but they had zero advice on what to dial the regulator to for serving!)

So...today I fill up the tank yet again at lunch and will pressurize the system and do a submerge test...Thinking of getting a large enough vessel to submerge the log kegs (corny and sankey) as well with connectors on to see if any leaks are there...If a few drops of water make it into the beer, I am OK at this point if I solve the issue (or at least pinpoint the problem). Feel free to tell me I'm crazy for dropping kegs into a tub of water...

 

[thedrunkenirishman]

I just want to emphasize that you don't want this diaphragm slathered with lube when you reassemble. Massage the lube in D) to revive the rubber, then wipe it all off. Then sanitize the diaphragm and apply a very thin coating of lube. It should look glossy but you shouldn't actually see any lube (clumps) on it. If you stick it in with too much lube on it D) then you will gum up the works and can lose the ability to make small adjustments in pressure.

This is very new regulator from what I know about it...Came with Kegerator purchased a 2-3 years back. That said, it could be faulty and may need to check...

Hoping I don't need to take apart regulator though...hoping it's something more obvious that the submerge tests will show...

 

[JuanMoore]

Thinking of getting a large enough vessel to submerge the log kegs (corny and sankey) as well with connectors on to see if any leaks are there... Feel free to tell me I'm crazy for dropping kegs into a tub of water...

You're absolutely not crazy for considering submerging the kegs, but there may be an easier method. You can wrap duct tape or masking tape to create kind of a bowl around the top of the keg, and then fill it with water. For sankey kegs you can just tape over the handle holes and weep holes in the top skirt. A 5 gal bucket should be plenty large enough to submerge everything else.

 

[Setesh]

You're absolutely not crazy for considering submerging the kegs, but there may be an easier method. You can wrap duct tape or masking tape to create kind of a bowl around the top of the keg, and then fill it with water. For sankey kegs you can just tape over the handle holes and weep holes in the top skirt. A 5 gal bucket should be plenty large enough to submerge everything else.

That's a great idea! I used a trash can that I filled with my chiller water, but I like the sound of your way.

 

[day_trippr]

The duct tape bowl thing works very well...

Cheers!

 

[gatsby174]

Make sure your O-rings look good on your corny kegs, but in my experience a common culprit is the regulator nut and thread connecting to the CO2 tank.

Can try to test that if you haven't already, but just wrapping the threads with teflon tape and then reattaching the regulator is a common fix.

This! I found this plus 6 other leaks on my commercial purchased kegerator, including the threads going into the regulator in two spots!

 

[thedrunkenirishman]

Update for those scoring at home…submerge test showed a number of leaks on one of my lines. Actually showed a leak on the check valve itself which is something I didn’t think to check before. Unscrewed the lever, added some plumbers tape, and reattached more tightly…No more leak on the manifold.

Then I found a bigger leak on the threads to the ball lock disconnect…Which is odd because my soaping the line didn’t reveal that…Again, some plumbers tape and retightening solved that one. Then I found what I believe to be a leak on the ball lock disconnect itself. When I submerge it a large bubble comes up from inside the disconnect. The piece that pushes down the poppet was leaking air. So off to the LHBS to swap.

Other 2 lines seemed to be doing well…no leaks!

My only other thing to do is to rig something up to submerge the top of the cornies underwater for leaks…Someone mentioned keg lube and I will probably buy some to have just in case…I don’t think I have any issues with cornies themselves, but I am so damn paranoid at this point, that I want to check everything.

So there you go…Thanks to everyone for the tips….may be back here for other issues once I know I have sealed system. I was having foaming issues, but found some good resources on here already that I will try once I know it’s no longer a leak issue.

 

[Howhownow]

Keg lube is a great helper for all manner of problems.
Well, not ALL problems.
Does great for everything with a seal. I only started using it a while back an it has been a big help.

 

[Stealthcruiser]

You did catch the post, about a "duct tape dam" around the top of your Corny's, didn't you?

So you can flood all the connections with pressure applied, and all hoses hooked up, and not resort to submerging the Corny.