Whats the huge draw for "going pro"?

[shoreman]

I've recently got back into brewing and joined up on this forum - ive been brewing on and off for about 10 years and took the last 3 or so off. This forum rocks and homebrewing has reached a level I didnt experience before - theres so many new little tweeks and gear that just wasnt around. I've worked in the craft beer biz for a while on the marketing side- not a bad gig, very low pay.

One thing Ive noticed here is so many people looking to go pro or start a brewery - Im just curious what the draw is to that? Its such a hard job & you wont have nearly the freedom you have as a homebrewer - thats why alot of brewers still homebrew. Its low paying unless you want to work for large breweries, you drink ALOT, the market is oversaturated right now as well. Tons of upfront cash - either in education to brew for someone else or starting your own.

So just curious why people are so wanting to "go pro"?

 

[VTDuffman]

I'd reckon it's a variation of the notion that "If you do what you love, you'll never work a day in your life."

So yeah, it would be all that bad stuff like you said, but it would also be awesome and rewarding, especially when working in a soulless corporate hellhole like I do

I could never do it because of the money an I have a family, but I already told my wife if I win mega millions I'm going to go work sweeping the floors for our local brewery (Lost Rhino)...

 

[BrewKnurd]

I could never do it because of the money an I have a family, but I already told my wife if I win mega millions I'm going to go work sweeping the floors for our local brewery (Lost Rhino)...

I think if you win the mega millions, you can start your own local brewery.

 

[shoreman]

Sorry if that came off negative - there certainly are positive aspects but I think of those more along the lines of owning a biz or being self employed - you know making your own hours & products, no boss, etc. I have my own biz and it is very rewarding but also has its challenges.

 

[Nateo]

Its such a hard job & you wont have nearly the freedom . . . Its low paying, Tons of upfront cash

A better question is, "Why do people want to be self-employed?"

I think the above drawbacks could be said of almost any small business ownership. I'm always responsible for the business. I work 12+ hours a day (still have time to read forums between customers, though). So my hourly wage is like, nothing, and the down payment and mortgage were more money than I can fathom.

But, the upside is I work for myself. Every dollar I bring in, I bring in for myself, not some shareholders or inept upper managers. I could be paying myself more if I weren't reinvesting the money. So you're not making any money in the short term, but you're building something that will be worth a lot more one day, when you sell it.

 

[shoreman]

A better question is, "Why do people want to be self-employed?"

Great point. I totally agree, there is something very rewarding about creating your own work. When I see threads about starting breweries it never seems to be a viable business - 1bbl brewery is awesome if you have no overhead and you set it up in an established retsaurant - but othethan that its almost impossible.

 

[Nateo]

Great point. I totally agree, there is something very rewarding about creating your own work. When I see threads about starting breweries it never seems to be a viable business - 1bbl brewery is awesome if you have no overhead and you set it up in an established retsaurant - but othethan that its almost impossible.

You didn't mention nanobrewing in your OP, so, your question isn't so much "why do so many people want to go pro" it's "why do so many people want to go pro on such a small scale that it wouldn't be profitable?"

I think most small businesses are unprofitable, and that's why so many fail.

Really interesting post over here, if you haven't seen it:
http://www.probrewer.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=77810#post77810

 

[Revvy]

I love this hobby too much to ever want to do it for a "Job." Not everyone wants to do this for money. A lot of us like this hobby way too much to ever want to turn this into work....It's one thing to get up at 10am, get brewing by noon, and drink all day while standing around with your friends to brew 5-10 gallons of beer, that doesn't necessarily have to be the same recipe every time, and have to maintain consistancy from batch to batch. And to start at 5 in the morning mucking out several hundred pounds of stinking grain from the mlt from yesterday's backbreaking brew day, and spend another 10 hours a day doing it again. Not to mention it's no different from any other business, people think breweries must be places of drunken bachanalia, but it's no different than any other factory or places of business, random drug tests (someone posted on here that he couldn't believe that when he applied for a job there they made him piss in a cup) deadlines, taxes, licensing, inspections, budgets ad nauseum.

Brewing professionally has as much in common with what we do as building model airplanes has with being an airforce mechanic. It's a matter of scale and responsibility.

If you want to get an idea of the reality of trying to start one, read Brewpastor's great thread Don't Try This at Home - parts 1, 2 and 3.

And we have a thread of just the opposite. Show of hands: Who doesn't want to go into commercial brewing? It's folks who have a more realistic view of what commercial brewing is, and want to keep that away from the fun we're having now.

I ruined a vocation by deciding to become a minister. I enjoyed being a leader in my church, and even being a seminarian was fun; all the "authority" without the responsibility (and people stabbing you in the back)....It's taken me like 6 years and a pretty special circumstances to actually step back into church ministry again, and I still have trepidation, I went through hell at my last church.

 

[Teromous]

In most of the stories that I've read about homebrewers that go pro, a large portion of the motivation comes from other people telling them they should start a brewery. Jamil Zainasheff said that people had told him for many years that he should start his own brewery. Sam Calagione said that he got so much positive feedback from friends telling him to start one, that he did as well. I think that a lot of people don't focus on the negative aspects of the goal or the prospects of failure, when looking to achieve something. It reminds me of that Mitch Hedberg joke:

I like to drink red wine. This girl says “doesn’t red wine give you a headache?” “Yeah, eventually, but the 1st and the middle part are amazing. I’m not going to stop doing something for what happens at the end. “Mitch, do you want an apple?” “No, eventually it will be a core.”

 

[shoreman]

Nice post Revvy- I've also jumped into a couple of jobs that were related wit hobbies/fun activities - snowboarding&beer - won't be doing that again.

and thanks for the links - I have no interest in going pro at all, in fact I keep going smaller - now 3 gallon biab batches for my belgian beer and any other odd beer that I don't want 5 gallons of.

 

[shoreman]

In most of the stories that I've read about homebrewers that go pro, a large portion of the motivation comes from other people telling them they should start a brewery. Jamil Zainasheff said that people had told him for many years that he should start his own brewery. Sam Calagione said that he got so much positive feedback from friends telling him to start one, that he did as well. I think that a lot of people don't focus on the negative aspects of the goal or the prospects of failure, when looking to achieve something.

Lets face facts though Sam had a nice family investment to start dogfish - read his book.

I'm not sure about Jamil's journey, but hopefully he has a backer. I know he moved into a space that is more of a COOP.

Not saying it isn't do-able....& I'm not trying to focus on the negative here I'm just looking to see why people are so interested in it - its interesting to me to hear people's reasons rather than post about how difficult it is in other posts when people ask what it takes to start a microbrewery.

The craft market is so oversaturated right now in the US...why do you think Stone is going to Europe? - its a new market.

 

[Revvy]

So you actually DID try working in the industry? By your post it sounds like you really have a practical understanding of the "realities" over the fantasy.

You should share you expereinces....

 

[Revvy]

Hey, nice blog!!!

 

[Brewsncrabs]

A better question is, "Why do people want to be self-employed?"

I think the above drawbacks could be said of almost any small business ownership. I'm always responsible for the business. I work 12+ hours a day (still have time to read forums between customers, though). So my hourly wage is like, nothing, and the down payment and mortgage were more money than I can fathom.

But, the upside is I work for myself. Every dollar I bring in, I bring in for myself, not some shareholders or inept upper managers. I could be paying myself more if I weren't reinvesting the money. So you're not making any money in the short term, but you're building something that will be worth a lot more one day, when you sell it.

That's what i did. Ran my own vending company for 10 years then sold all my accounts back to the one of the largest vending companies in the country. Now I am one of their managers. Can't beat that. Take their accounts from them and then sell them back to them. 😄lots oh hours but lots of satisfaction.

 

[shoreman]

So you actually DID try working in the industry? By your post it sounds like you really have a practical understanding of the "realities" over the fantasy.

You should share you expereinces....

Yes but on the marketing side of things but I went to alot of events - they had a brewpub and contracted some bottles. Great experience.

That's a good idea - I should do a post on my experiences.

Don't get me wrong the craft beer industry is awesome, but melding your hobbies & work hasn't worked out for me in the past - maybe it has for other people - but most brewers I talked to while working - worked super hard. Including Sam from Dogfish - I've never met someone with so much energy and exuberance about a product as that guy.

 

[SpacemanSpiff]

I would disagree with the craft beer market being oversaturated. We just recently passed the all-time high for number of breweries and the old high was set just before prohibition. With a lot more population we're nowhere close to that brewery per capita number though.
The megabrewers still command the vast majority of the beer market share, but craft beer is biting into that every year. It's a small, but growing market for craft beer.
I also think with many things starting to move into a "go local" mode there's still plenty of room in the market. Your area may have a brewery on every corner, but there are still plenty of areas in this country that are virtually untapped when it comes to craft beer.
I would agree that it's starting to get crowded and the time to start was probably 2-3 years ago, but if it were something that I were inclined to do, the current number of breweries wouldn't scare me away.

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

There's a combination of romanticizing and lack of awareness about the realities of commercial brewing. You get overly excited about making beer, it's pretty good, everybody says it's good and you start thinking if you only had some permits and a really big ale pail you could be a commercial brewer and it would be amazing amounts of fun every day. I think most of us have that dream at least for a few days (myself included).

Then you realize the work isn't like homebrewing, you lose a lot of the creativity, there's all the business aspects, there's a good chance your business will fail, the pay is lousy, etc. and some of the romanticizing goes away.

 

[Revvy]

There's a combination of romanticizing and lack of awareness about the realities of commercial brewing.

THIS is it in a nutshell. It's so funny how many folks come on here after their first or second batch of extract with steeping grains kit batches ready to "go pro."

 

[Grinder12000]

I'm involved with a 1bbl brew pub. When I started brewing I wanted to have my own pub but now. It's a LOT of work. No weekends, 12 hour days Minimum 7days a week. You have to worry about employees and a zillion non brewing problems.

It's a nice dream but reality is MUCH different

 

[shoreman]

Hey, nice blog!!!

Thanks Revvy - just started it - going with an all around DIY approach rather than just a brew blog - I love making anything from scratch - my next adventure is cheese just got all the goods just looking for decent milk. :rockin:

 

[BigRob]

This is the same problem with the restaurant industry, food network has romanticized the whole "Chef" thing to a ridiculous point. I used to love cooking, then I began doing it for a living.

No thanks, after more than a decade, I'm going to school to be a gas tech instead. Brewing is staying a hobby, and maybe I'll get back to my love of cooking too.

Nothing kills your love of a relaxing and creative hobby like trying to mix it with money and business.

 

[ChillWill]

When you say going pro, do you mean it as owning/setting up on your own or going to work as a brewer?

I did the latter and it's literally the best job I've ever had. Yes, it's crazy physical but I'm young and fit and I never really feel 'worn out' or fatigued from it, I just tend to have the satisfying feeling at the end of the week that tells me I've worked pretty hard but not worn myself out.

Then again, we have a fairly automated system so we don't have to dig out the mash tun

It's completely different from homebrewing so it doesn't feel like mixing work and a hobby. For example at home I'll get the brew on, then maybe have a beer or chill out. At work I'll get the brew on, get gravity samples from fermenting beer, sort out finings, clean tanks, run the centrifuge, get the malt milled for the next brew etc, etc, etc. Never a dull moment.

 

[Fastmetal]

I'm a pilot and involved on an aviation board. No difference there, people get their pilots licenses and immediately want to get a job flying the big iron not realizing that it's not all its cracked up to be.

 

[Newbrew12]

Your area may have a brewery on every corner, but there are still plenty of areas in this country that are virtually untapped when it comes to craft beer.

Agreed. I just moved to Sioux Falls in August and we have 1, count it 1, brewery that has 5 microbrews. Their best being their double hopped IPA and everything else being meh. I come from Colorado where there's breweries on every street with taps that fill every wall. Theres DEFINATELY places (like where I live) that needs help in the home brew market. In fact, our only home brew store is in a gas station and only has two shelves worth of "stuff".

 

[Airborneguy]

Zero interest here. I have a very stable, well paying job with an awesome retirement plan, so I'm sure that factors in, but I also don't want to make my hobby my livelihood. My cousin wants to open a BBQ brewpub since his party BBQ business has been doing so well. I've told him I'd show him the basics and he can learn from there. I'm not interested at all in going 'pro'.

On a side note, I hate that a lot of guys look at certain brewers as celebrities. It's just weird to me.

 

[Kate00]

For me, the appeal is that it is a job. I am a self employed custom woodworker, and with the state of the economy, work is extremely difficult to find. I have applied for hundreds of jobs over the past year or so, in all areas, and i have had ONE interview. ONE. and didnt get the job. I am a very talented woodworker, but the work just isnt there. Construction companies are folding left and right, and the ones that are holding on are barely holding on.

So... brewing may be an option for a different career. I know it is a lot of hard work, but that's nothing new. construction and woodworking isnt exactly easy. So far, Im making really good beer. Ive won a homebrew competition. If i continue to improve and all, it may be an option for something I can do for an OK living. I know I wont be rolling in a Ferrari. I really wouldnt even have to sell very much beer to beat what im currently making with carpentry. The big snag is the capital to get going, more than recipes or figuring out systems and stuff. People arent buying high end custom stuff, but they are at least buying beer.

 

[Phunhog]

You guys all bring up a lot of valid points. I still think it would be cool to open a nano someday but you have to go into with the idea that you will not make much, if any, money. As long as you enjoy it and find it rewarding who cares? Right now I am bridging the gap between homebrewer and probrewer and it is a lot of fun! Obviously I can't sell my beer but I am able to pour samples at beer festivals and special events. I have sold a ton of t-shirts and glasses with my logo and that has paid for all of my homebrewing expenses plus I have made a small profit. Enough that I wonder what the benefit of establishing a "real" brewery would be for all the previously mentioned reasons.

 

[Airborneguy]

As long as you enjoy it and find it rewarding who cares?

My mortgage company for one.

 

[veritas524]

Brewing professionally has as much in common with what we do as building model airplanes has with being an airforce mechanic. It's a matter of scale and responsibility.

I'm an Air Force mechanic and I suck at building model airplanes!

 

[Phunhog]

My mortgage company for one.

True! But I have always thought owning a nanobrewery was a lot like being in a bar band on weekends. You make a little bit of money but ultimately you are doing for personal enjoyment not as a career choice.

 

[shoreman]

Nice to hear about everyone's comments on going pro

 

[sanibel14]

Everybody's situation is different too. Sam from Dogfish did have a little money but nowhere in the vicinity of what it takes nowadays to compete. He also seems like the type that would probably succeeded in running a non beer type business if he wanted to. Some people are just born with it. Do what you love. Im a fishing guide but love to fish on my days off as well.

 

[kaz4121]

To echo what has already been stated on here over multiple posts, I believe the draw to "going pro" is twofold. First and foremost, I think people are inspired by the success stories of SA, DFH, etc and they believe they truly have a quality product that could very well be served on tap across the county. The "if he can do it, why can't I" attitude, combined with the passion/religion of homebrewing makes this a huge motivational factor. Secondly, I honestly believe the "own your own business" aspect is appealing to many Americans and has become something of the new American dream. Who wouldn't want to start a company and make a difference in the market? Granted, I don't think people realize how quickly fun becomes work and work becomes stress and stress becomes disdain (in some instances).

All in all, it is fun to think what could be and the unknown will always be intriguing.

 

[Grinnan5150]

I echo the many comments that if you try to turn a hobby into a business you will wind up hating it. Also, changing your career path to a completely new one with maximum risk is a young man's game....especially in a bad economy. When you have kids to feed, clothe and educate as well as a mortgage best not to quit your day job despite your "what you want to be when you grow up dream".

I think I would have better luck financially standing on a street corner with a sign that read "Breast Exams $5" than I would running my own brewery....hmmmm...I might have to look into that.

I also agree with the OP that the market may be a little over saturated. The craft beer section of my local liquor store has more beers than I will ever try. I think nowadays you would have to come up with something really special and original to stay profitable.

I may be also talking completely out of my a$$. Just my opinion.

 

[Nateo]

Almost everyone we knew thought we were crazy when we bought our business. We're hardly rolling in dough now, but we're all making better wages than we were before this, and we're building something that might actually be worth enough to do what we really want to do later (like buy a brewery) when we sell it.

Yes owning a business is hard work, risky, stupid, crazy, etc., but you have to place a bet if you want to win the pot.

 

[Phunhog]

I think another reason why people want to turn "pro" is simply to get your beer to the people. Anyone who has seriously considered it already considers it a craft....much like music. Can you imagine spending countless hours practicing only play in front of a mirror or maybe a few friends? Personally the only reason I want to be "pro" is to get my beer "out there". Under our stupid alcohol laws there is no other way.

 

[Calichusetts]

Fantastic thread...I highly recommend this book:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1594484805/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

It outlines our relationship between work and happiness. Couple points:

Money DOES NOT motivate us or make us happy! They did an experiment where kids came in and drew pictures. One group just got to draw a picture and they would say "good job." The other group got $1 based on if their drawing was good or not. After a few months...$1 group HATED drawing while free drawing group still loved it.

The book analyzes money-based raises vs. "freedom" raises and found that workers are far more happy and motivated by pursuing their own interests. The example was a software company that gives you fridays to do whatever you want as long as it is computer related.

Grinding out your favorite hobby for a living can very quickly change your opinion on what you do. I am a decent photography and considered doing it for a living...once I realized how much I had to work and how little I would make...it didn't make sense. I might not shoot for weeks at a time and then shoot 1000 pictures. THAT is why I enjoy it...the freedom. Grinding it out knowning that every picture I took was my groceries or part of my mortage would ruin it for me.

I've often thought about the whole "what if I won the lottery" idea with brewing. And I have already come to the conclusion that I would never open a brewery...I simply do not enjoy working 80 hours a week and having to rely on others (assistant brewers, marketers, distributors) to perpetuate my happiness. I WOULD become a beer judge and cicerone, and probably do tons of research and write a book. But that is where I would leave it.

Its a tough call. Some want to keep it a hobby...for me its one of the most peaceful and enjoyable 5 hours I have. Others see that happiness and want to do it full time. Good luck to all, whatever road you take.

 

[jspence1]

I don't know I personally liked working in a brewery, if it hadn't been costing me money to work there I would still be there. I have a couple of years before my kids won't need daycare and I plan on returning to it then.

 

[Airborneguy]

The book analyzes money-based raises vs. "freedom" raises and found that workers are far more happy and motivated by pursuing their own interests.

My job offers tons of overtime. I work with guys who add on at least 1/4-1/2 of our base salary on top every year. I just can't do it, I'd rather be home relaxing. We have a very generous vacation and sick package, and although I very, very rarely go sick, I take full-advantage of the vacation time and consider myself lucky. While there's a slight chance I'd take a part-time brewery job if offered to me once I retire, I could never open a business and work 80+ a week after doing what I've been doing all this time.

 

[smokinghole]

I'm not trying to go pro per say as maybe implied in this thread. I'm graduating with a biotechnology degree in food safety and quality assurance. So while I'm looking for jobs in the food industry my interest lies in the alcoholic beverage industry. I work part time now doing a small amount of lab work for a brewery near the university. I don't know where I'm going to be working quite yet, but I do know I like working in a brewery. I'd rather work there at this point when I'm on the low end of the pay scale before I go work for a chicken slaughter facility. The other benefit is I don't have student loans to worry about when my college time is over.