Whats more effective for hop aroma: boilling or Dry Hopping?

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

rafaelpinto

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2013
Messages
246
Reaction score
6
Hey fellow homebrewers :mug:

I was wondering what would most effectively extract the hop aromas potential - boiling for a few minutes or dry hopping. If dry hopping is the answer, what about boilling hops only for bitterness and flavor?

If it makes sense, I will add 3oz of hops only at the last 20 and 10 minutes (late hopping, enough to reach 35 IBU), saving another 3oz for dryhopping. If it does not make sense, the 3oz will be added on the last minute of boil.

So, what you guys think?
 
DRY HOPPING

I normally skip the zero minute addition in favor of dry hops. Sometimes if I'm feeling generous, I'll also add zero minute additions, but if I had only two ounces left and I had to choose flameout or dry hop, I would choose dry hop without a doubt.
 
If you're looking for a lot of aroma I'd say add them at knockout and do a hopstand for 30 minutes before cooling and then add a few ounces in dry hop as well.
 
Flame out hops still add bitterness too. I was listening to the Jamil Show on The Brewing Network and he said that Isomerization still occurs in temperatures as low as 170f. I assume that most recipes that are calling for flame-out hops are not taking this into account. Something to keep in mind especially since your recipe has a lower amount of IBUs.
 
Flame out hops still add bitterness too. I was listening to the Jamil Show on The Brewing Network and he said that Isomerization still occurs in temperatures as low as 170f. I assume that most recipes that are calling for flame-out hops are not taking this into account. Something to keep in mind especially since your recipe has a lower amount of IBUs.

This is true and needs to be taken into account, however the IBUs that you'll receive would be a minimal amount - probably < 5 IBUs (which you'd want to account for) - and IME dry hopping alone doesn't always contribute as much to the aroma as one might think. I make a lot of IPAs and have experimented quite a bit and though dry-hopping definitely does contribute to aroma, I think very late hopping also contributes an aromatic aspect that you can't get from just tossing the hops into the fermenter.
 
Most of the "aroma" portion of the hop oils are very volatile and vaporize very quickly at boiling or even 170 or 180. Most achieve aroma from dry hopping or an extended lower temperature "steep" of the wort with hops.

I was under the impression that at 170,180 the aroma was not lost that quickly. That's why people do hop stands at 180 (or 190 or 170). Based on what I've read I think at 160 the hop stand isn't as effective.

Can you cite some articles that say that most of the aroma is lost even at 170.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/hop-stand-408227/
 
I was under the impression ....

Can you cite some articles that say that most of the aroma is lost even at 170.

I meant, and perhaps wasn't clear, essential aroma hop oils evaporate quickly at boiling, and less so as temperature is reduced.
Several posters in the thread you linked, in addition to myself
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/hop-stand-408227/
noticed best results at lower temperatures, of course this is all impressionable and likely also varies with how fast the wort is cooled...

My own experience is that at 170 -180 there is still considerable steam or water vapor rising from the kettle, and since the essential aroma oils flash below that point, they are being lost as well, to some extent.

From the BYO article...

Three temperature profiles that seem to be popular among homebrewers are just off boil range 190&#8211;212 °F (88&#8211;100 °C), the sub-isomerization range 160&#8211;170 °F (71&#8211;77 °C), and a tepid hop stand range 140&#8211;150 °F (60&#8211;66 °C). The 190&#8211;212 °F (88&#8211;100 °C) range will allow essential oils with higher flashpoints an easier time to solubulize into the wort and also will allow some alpha acid isomerization to occur with the best estimates of between 5&#8211;15% utilization. Some homebrewers will keep their kettle burner on low to keep the temperature of the wort elevated above 200 °F (93 °C) during their extended hop stands which would better emulate the conditions in commercial whirlpools. A hop stand in the 160&#8211;170 °F (71&#8211;77 °C) range will basically shut down the alpha acid isomerization reaction and the lower temperatures will reduce the vaporization of the essential oils. Homebrewers can use their wort chillers to bring the wort down to this range before adding the knockout hops or they can add a second dose of knockout hops. The 140&#8211;150 °F (60&#8211;66 °C) range will once again reduce vaporization of the low flashpoint oils, but may take longer to get the same amount of essential oils extracted.



BYO article
http://byo.com/component/k2/item/2808-hop-stands

HBT thread
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/how-get-best-hop-aroma-flameout-additions-213803/

from the thread above...
I will comment on the science of this&#8230;

Hops have many specific aromatic contributors that can favorably affect a beer&#8217;s aroma if utilized properly. The most important contributor when it comes to delivering that blast hop aroma is a hydrocarbon compound known as myrcene.

Myrcene is an important part of the essential aromatic oils in hops. Perfumeries frequently harness its power. And commercial American IPA brewers strongly favor hefty late and dryhop additions of high level myrcene hops like Citra, Amarillo, Simcoe, Centennial, Nugget, US Northern Brewer, and Horizon. Other hops like Columbus, Summit, Galaxy, and Chinook have moderately high amounts myrcene while still having very high total oil levels. The interesting thing about hops like these is that despite having high total oil levels and high myrcene, these hops tend to have low levels of caryophyllene, humulene, farnesene, and selinene. The opposite is true for European Noble hops which have low total oils, low myrcene, and moderately high levels of everything else.

Myrcene is highly volatile and subject to heat and oxidation. Thus it is found at very low levels when used early in the boil, but the levels are much higher during mid flameout and dryhop. A 60 minute hop stand during mid flameout (anywhere between 100-150 F) have provided the best results for me. This is easily attained by using a slow-cooling ice bath as opposed to a fast cooling wort chiller. I do this in my stainless steel sink, which covers the kettle about 3/4 of the way with ice-water. It quickly melts so you really need to keep re-icing to realistically cool it in one hour. Don't be afraid of adding ice. The kettle will be primarily covered to aid sanitation (aside from 2 or 3 short whirlpools). A covered kettle is necessary after the boil, but it retains a ton of heat.

I&#8217;m so glad I did not buy a wort chiller because I would have never stumbled on the benefits of a long hop stand, which has given me insane hop aroma. I always couple a long hop stand with a substantial dryhop at the rate of 0.50 to 1.00 ounce hops per gallon of beer (0.65 average), depending on gravity, time, and technique of the brewer. So both techniques in combination have really worked to wow me and my friends.

As with most other aspects of hop quality, there is a difference between whole hops and pellets as well. Whole hops can have as much as 70% more myrcene than pellets of the same variety, but that difference is flipped when the wort is hopped as only 5% of myrcene is extracted from whole hops compared to 17% from pellets. This is why I prefer pellets for flameout and dryhop additions. Pellets also release more of their oils in a shorter time frame. However, I try to stick with leaf hops during the boil because their quality is typically better since it cannot be masked through processing like pellet hops.

In closing, you're really looking for the following:

*High hop oil content
*High myrcene
*Low levels of the other Noble hop compounds
*Long hop stand between 100-150 F
*Using pellet hops late
*Using a slow-working ice bath with a couple whirlpools
*Implementing a substantial dryhop in combo with long hop stand
 
Alright, dry hopping seemed the answer but late hop addition, whirlpools hopping and the 140–170 °F range (which is said to not isomerize and lower oil vaporization) also pull and preserve better the hop aroma potential?

Back to the thread question: what is the most effective and efficient hop aroma extraction method? Carbonation wont exhale all the aroma achieved with late hop, whirlpool and 140-170ºF additions? :confused:
 
rafaelpinto said:
Back to the thread question: what is the most effective and efficient hop aroma extraction method? :

A hop back, a Randall, or I have heard Stone circulates CO2 in the bright tank to distribute and suspend the dry hops.

Without any additional equipment, I think your options are hop stand, dry hop, or better yet, both!
Cheers!
 
You provided great information! Thank you very much. I've decided to do hop stand and dry hopping.

Now, strictly about Hop Stand. I will use the 160-170ºF range (since it lowers oil vaporization and does not isomerize the acids) for no more than 60 minutes (since the extraction gets slower at this temperature).

Question: can I keep turning the fire on and off in order to maintain that temperature range?

Second question: what about off flavors? should I bother about it?
 
In response to your first question, I don't think you can say one is more effective than the other and then just do that one. They both add different hoppy aspects to the beer. The flavor and aroma you get from late addition and steeped hops is not going to be the same flavor and aroma that you get from dry hopping. In my opinion a good IPA needs both of these to really round out the hop profile. It sounds like you're going to be doing both though, so that's good!

You provided great information! Thank you very much. I've decided to do hop stand and dry hopping.

Now, strictly about Hop Stand. I will use the 160-170ºF range (since it lowers oil vaporization and does not isomerize the acids) for no more than 60 minutes (since the extraction gets slower at this temperature).

Question: can I keep turning the lid on and off in order to maintain that temperature range?

Second question: what about off flavors? should I bother about it?

This sounds like a good plan. By "turning the lid on and off" did you mean heat? If so, I don't see a problem with doing that.

As for your second question, I'm not really sure what you're talking about. What off flavors are you thinking there will be and why?
 
rafaelpinto said:
Alright, dry hopping seemed the answer but late hop addition, whirlpools hopping and the 140&#150;170 °F range (which is said to not isomerize and lower oil vaporization) also pull and preserve better the hop aroma potential?

Back to the thread question: what is the most effective and efficient hop aroma extraction method? Carbonation wont exhale all the aroma achieved with late hop, whirlpool and 140-170ºF additions? :confused:

I'm a big fan of hop bursting between 5 min and during whirlpool vs. dry hopping (DJ can get a little grassy), but I do both.

If you're kegging, I'd recommend DH in the keg at room temp while carbing, and don't purge any more than to clear headspace. Every time you release pressure, you're forcing aroma out of the beer. This is especially true with a carb stone.
 
I don't think this is an either-or question, you get a different quality from flameout hops than dry hopping. Dry hopping gets more of those super-volatile, floral and grassy oils while late-boil additions give you more of a rounded, "beery" aroma. Experiment if you want to know what that means, I guess. Also, I think to get similar effect you usually want more or less double the hops when dry hopping as opposed to flameout. Flameout "dulls" the flavor but you extract more of it.

I think you get a more balanced PA/IPA if you do a little of both.
 
You provided great information! Thank you very much. I've decided to do hop stand and dry hopping.

Now, strictly about Hop Stand. I will use the 160-170ºF range (since it lowers oil vaporization and does not isomerize the acids) for no more than 60 minutes (since the extraction gets slower at this temperature).

Question: can I keep turning the lid on and off in order to maintain that temperature range?

Second question: what about off flavors? should I bother about it?

Sorry, but the short answer is you can do whatever you want, the differences will likely be subtle. It also depends on the hops you are adding, the brew you are making, the alignment of the stars etc...ok, sort of kidding about the stars :)
For me, I would not bother adding heat to stay in a precise range, you are in a "cooling" phase of the brew process, to start adding heat seems backwards in my simple mind???

Off flavors??? IDK

Brewing is creating...have no fear!
 
Sorry, but the short answer is you can do whatever you want, the differences will likely be subtle. It also depends on the hops you are adding, the brew you are making, the alignment of the stars etc...ok, sort of kidding about the stars :)
For me, I would not bother adding heat to stay in a precise range, you are in a "cooling" phase of the brew process, to start adding heat seems backwards in my simple mind???

Off flavors??? IDK

Brewing is creating...have no fear!

Yeah, I agree with this. I don't think there's any reason to stress or put in extra work to stay in a precise range.

I just did an IPA yesterday with a 30 minute hop stand. I chilled it down to about 190F (which only took me turning on my wort chiller for about 2 seconds) then threw the hops in and put the lid on. I stirred it up a couple times during the steep and at the end of the 30 minutes it had gotten down to about 155F. The hydrometer sample tasted plenty hoppy to me.
 
Alright guys, thanks a bunch! :)

The only thing I have to solve is how to cool the wort after flameout, since I only have a counter-flow chiller. Maybe chillin 1/3 of the wort with the counter-flow, returning it to the pan.
 
Alright guys, thanks a bunch! :)

The only thing I have to solve is how to cool the wort after flameout, since I only have a counter-flow chiller. Maybe chillin 1/3 of the wort with the counter-flow, returning it to the pan.

You could throw some ice packs in it and stir until it gets to the temperature you want.
 
Ice pack it is! I wonder if the plastic is non-toxic and wont release flavor/aroma into the wort.

(...)


Here is my hop schedule, a total of 10oz:

1) At boil (3.5oz): 0.8oz Centennial 20min before flameout; 0.8oz Centennial10min before flameout; 1.6oz Centennial 5min before flameout.

2) Hop Stand (3.5oz): 1.7oz of the hop mix* at 185ºF; 1.7oz of the hop mix* at 170ºF (as long as it takes between 185 and 160).

3) Dry Hop (3.5oz): 3.5oz of the hop mix* for 5 days.


*Hop Mix (total of 7oz): 0.7oz Summit, 0.7oz El Dorado, 0.7oz Mosaic, 1.4oz Ahtanum; 1.7oz Topaz; 1.7oz HBC 342.

:mug:
 
Alright guys, thanks a bunch! :)

The only thing I have to solve is how to cool the wort after flameout, since I only have a counter-flow chiller. Maybe chillin 1/3 of the wort with the counter-flow, returning it to the pan.

It really doesn't take all that long to drop to 180 - 185 without any active chilling effort.....guessing 20 minutes?
RDWHAHB
 
It really doesn't take all that long to drop to 180 - 185 without any active chilling effort.....guessing 20 minutes?
RDWHAHB

Yeah especially if it's a cold day you could probably just stir the wort until it drops to 185F and I don't think it would take all that long.
 
Yeah, I am excited about this recipe! Its a lot of hops, I wonder if it will be well balanced with the crystal, oat malts and flaked oat.

I mean, will a recognizable hop flavor/aroma exist with hop mix I described?

Also, do you know any well bodied IPA?
 
Back
Top