What's been your game changer for LOB?

[Broothru]

OK, I can see I need to read up on anti-oxidants. Thanks for the detailed
response.

There're some threads on this forum talking about "Trifecta" which is a home made concoction of NaMeta, ascorbic acid and a plant-based product marketed by Wyeast called BrewTan B. It's a very effective antioxidant for reducing dissolved oxygen in the wort during the mash and in the late boil. The German Low Oxygen brewers forum has some very impressive data about the efficacy of these antioxidants.

Brooo Brother

 

[OleBrewing]

It's not sarcasm. It's called Randalizing.

It's not sarcasm. It's called Randalizing.

Yeah, yeah. Beer has a shelf life of hop aroma no matter what process. Infused hops are the way to go for fresh hopped beer.

 

[eric19312]

Why is Brewtan B still so hard to find?

None of my frequently used online suppliers carry it.... When I've looked for it in LHBS owners will say they have never heard of it.

 

[effeffe]

if you ask me although i am not a hop head; this is a dead end thread. Heavy hopped beer was introduced for longer storage time in barrel and thus oxygen permeation. if a person wants to brew a beer it will need oxygen for fermentation, after that the dry hopping happens; this would be the only time that excess oxygen could be introduced. do it in a closed system may make fresh hop beer last a little longer but the excess in process time and equipment to me seems a lot to deal with.

how about dry hop your glass when a pint is poured. (ok that was sarcasm) i am more of a traditional beer person.

Hops were used for their antimicrobial activity though, it has nothing to do with oxygen. Besides, I don't see the point of using obsolete processes as a reference: we know better now.

Anyway, limiting oxidation on the cold and hot side is not just to keep your beer fresh longer, but to preserve flavors that are otherwise lost from the very beginning.

For a brief while I would try to mitigate O2 in the empty fermenter before filling with wort. I used a spray bottle with NaMeta and water solution to mist the inside, then seal up the fermenter during the time I actually brewed. My thought was that the NaMeta would sequester gaseous O2 and then get displaced by the wort when I filled the fermenter from the bottom and be forced out the blow-off line. But I never knew if this was actually doing anything.

When I started adding antioxidants to the late boil, I stopped pre-treating the fermenter and would just do a closed transfer into the sealed but vented vessel. My thinking is that the antioxidants in the wort now have enough "carryover" protection until the pitched yeast starts using the dissolved oxygen in the wort from the oxygenation stone.

So yes, there is air (thus O2) in the empty fermenter. Much of that gets displaced while filling. When the wort in the fermenter gets oxygenated with a 'stone' attached to an oxygen bottle, the yeast pitched into the wort use that O2 to propagate fermentation, and quickly consume virtually all of it thus preventing O2 from oxidizing the beer.

As counterintuitive as it sounds, you want to eliminate as much O2 and D.O. in the container and the liquid as possible. Then as soon as the wort gets into the fermenter you want to get the yeast pitched as oxygen-free as you can. As soon as that is accomplished you then flood the wort with....wait for it....OXYGEN!

Crazy? Not really. You need oxygen to help get propagation started but not more oxygen than the yeast can consume relatively quickly to avoid oxidizing the fermenting beer. In this process, gaseous oxygen in the headspace of the fermenter is your beer's enemy. The dissolved oxygen (D.O.) in the wort is your friend.

Brooo Brother

Anecdotal, but someone reported issues pitching yeast in wort with sulfites, so pitching before oxygenating may be counter-productive here. But I guess the best way is to try both on your system and process (pitching first vs oxygenating first) and see how lag time and hydrogen sulfide (if any) change.

 

[Broothru]

Why is Brewtan B still so hard to find?

None of my frequently used online suppliers carry it.... When I've looked for it in LHBS owners will say they have never heard of it.

BrewTan B is produced and sold in bulk by Wyeast. You can find a description of it on their website. Obviously we home brewers don't need 50# of the stuff. I found it subdivided and sold in 2 oz packets on the Great Fermentations website for a couple of bucks I think.

I use less than 1 gram of it in a typical 7~8 gallon mash and a bit less than that added 5 minutes before Whirlfloc and knock out during the boil. After chilling and whirlpooling the wort is about as clear as fined beer, with most of the trub settled in the BV. That's of course in addition to the antioxidant protection I seeking, but "clearly" (pun intended) is a welcome side benefit.

Brooo Brother

 

[eric19312]

I add a tsp of brewtan B in 18 gallons with 10 min left in the boil. Then add my whirlfloc with 5 min left. I started using it back when I was using a copper IC but used 2 tsp then.

I can always find it when I google for it...but it's something like whirlfloc or gypsum that I will throw in my cart when I am buying other things. I'm wondering why @Bobby_M doesn't carry it or Farmhouse or YVH or Morebeer or Northern Brewer....or heck even Amazon.

 

[Broothru]

Anecdotal, but someone reported issues pitching yeast in wort with sulfites, so pitching before oxygenating may be counter-productive here. But I guess the best way is to try both on your system and process (pitching first vs oxygenating first) and see how lag time and hydrogen sulfide (if any) change.

You know, that's interesting. I've had the feeling for a while that my lag times between pitch and visual signs of fermentation were increasing. I wrote it off as cooler ambient temperatures or pitching at below optimum fermentation temperature for the yeast and allowing it to free rise to optimum temperature over 8~10 hours.

I may try increasing the time of forced oxygenation after pitch to see if that reduces lag time. If the sulfites are the root cause, the good news is that they are in fact providing antioxidant protection from the late boil into the fermenter (my goal). Now I need to determine if I can compensate with either less NaMeta in the boil or more O2 after the yeast pitch.

Thanks for the heads-up.

 

[Bobby_M]

if you ask me although i am not a hop head; this is a dead end thread. Heavy hopped beer was introduced for longer storage time in barrel and thus oxygen permeation. if a person wants to brew a beer it will need oxygen for fermentation, after that the dry hopping happens; this would be the only time that excess oxygen could be introduced. do it in a closed system may make fresh hop beer last a little longer but the excess in process time and equipment to me seems a lot to deal with.

how about dry hop your glass when a pint is poured. (ok that was sarcasm) i am more of a traditional beer person.

If by traditional, you mean oxidized beer, then OK. Dry hopping is not the only time oxygen might be introduced. That would be a permeable fermenter vessel. A bad lid seal. Open transfer to a bottling bucket or keg. All of them will hurt the beer and it's definitely not just hoppy beers that suffer.

 

[balrog]

I'm a fan of venting fermentation CO2 through empty serving keg, during fermentation, to purge the keg into which the closed transferred beer is ultimately put.

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm a fan of venting fermentation CO2 through empty serving keg, during fermentation, to purge the keg into which the closed transferred beer is ultimately put.

I would definitely do that if I could fit a keg inside my fermentation fridge.

 

[Panderson1]

I would definitely do that if I could fit a keg inside my fermentation fridge.

I'm thinking of drilling a small hole for the line. Can keep the door closed.. Anyone else do this?

 

[balrog]

My FC is just 2" foamboard and I just mash the lid on the lines leading out

 

[Consigliere]

I'm thinking of drilling a small hole for the line. Can keep the door closed.. Anyone else do this?

Yup I do this. Run all wires and hoses out through the side of the fridge. This way can fit 2 fermenters

 

[beersk]

It may well be....but the preboil is about as foolproof as there is, which is why I did it that way.

The more variables you have, the more process steps you have, the more likely SOMETHING will go wrong. At least when starting this LOB thing, simpler, IMO, is better.

I disagree. I think YOS is the better and easier method. And Bryan has shown with his bioreactor that it will scavenge effectively for up to 96 hours. So treat your water and if you happen to not be able to brew the next day, you're OK. I did preboil for a long time and while I finally got it down, it's a pain to chill the water back down to your strike temp. A friend of mine uses hot water to chill his down more slowly. I never thought of that. But now when I do low O2 brewing, I always use YOS. And the friend I showed low O2 brewing to just switched as well and is amazed at how much easier it is.

 

[mongoose33]

I disagree. I think YOS is the better and easier method. And Bryan has shown with his bioreactor that it will scavenge effectively for up to 96 hours. So treat your water and if you happen to not be able to brew the next day, you're OK. I did preboil for a long time and while I finally got it down, it's a pain to chill the water back down to your strike temp. A friend of mine uses hot water to chill his down more slowly. I never thought of that. But now when I do low O2 brewing, I always use YOS. And the friend I showed low O2 brewing to just switched as well and is amazed at how much easier it is.

OK, but remember the context in which I wrote that: for a newbie, the fewer variables with which they must contend, the more likely the outcome will be the desired one.

Pre-boiling is as foolproof as it can be, which is why--for a first-timer--I think that's the preferred method. You might think--or might not--that complicating things needlessly at first is a recipe for success, but if so, I disagree. As a retired educator, I think I know a little about that subject, and thus, my conclusion.

 

[cyberbackpacker]

As a retired educator, I think I know a little about that subject, and thus, my conclusion.

Well as a current educator, I disagree with you!

Measuring "x" grams of dry yeast and "x" grams of sugar, placing in water, and stirring is much simpler of a process/variable for a newbie to navigate/manage than boiling and then chilling down to the proper temp needed-- nailing that temp after the boil is not easy and requires babysitting.

Additionally, pre-boiling vs. YOS also assumes the user possesses a chiller of some sort-- an ice bath would be horribly inefficient for this purpose (really any purpose!).

YOS-- measure "x" grams of yeast and sugar, add to water, use water in as little as 45 minutes or as much as 4 days after adding yeast/sugar.

 

[beersk]

Well as a current educator, I disagree with you!

Measuring "x" grams of dry yeast and "x" grams of sugar, placing in water, and stirring is much simpler of a process/variable for a newbie to navigate/manage than boiling and then chilling down to the proper temp needed-- nailing that temp after the boil is not easy and requires babysitting.

Additionally, pre-boiling vs. YOS also assumes the user possesses a chiller of some sort-- an ice bath would be horribly inefficient for this purpose (really any purpose!).

YOS-- measure "x" grams of yeast and sugar, add to water, use water in as little as 45 minutes or as much as 4 days after adding yeast/sugar.

Exactly. I don't even measure it by weight, I do 1 tablespoon of each per 5 gallons. Usually overnight because it just helps to get it ready ahead of time and you know it's good to go the next day. It's that simple.

 

[mongoose33]

Well as a current educator, I disagree with you!

Measuring "x" grams of dry yeast and "x" grams of sugar, placing in water, and stirring is much simpler of a process/variable for a newbie to navigate/manage than boiling and then chilling down to the proper temp needed-- nailing that temp after the boil is not easy and requires babysitting.

Additionally, pre-boiling vs. YOS also assumes the user possesses a chiller of some sort-- an ice bath would be horribly inefficient for this purpose (really any purpose!).

YOS-- measure "x" grams of yeast and sugar, add to water, use water in as little as 45 minutes or as much as 4 days after adding yeast/sugar.

Really? You want to die on the hill that it's too hard to cool water?

I don't know what caused you to get up on the wrong side of the bed today, but I hope it's better for you tomorrow.

 

[Bilsch]

Really? You want to die on the hill that it's too hard to cool water?

Clearly I'm prejudiced on this subject but the reason it exists is I was tired of all the hassle of boiling and cooling the strike water.

 

[day_trippr]

YOS Downside: I need to actually clean my HLT (with its 50' 1/2" hex coil) instead of simply rinsing and wiping it dry...

Cheers!

 

[effeffe]

Really? You want to die on the hill that it's too hard to cool water?

I don't know what caused you to get up on the wrong side of the bed today, but I hope it's better for you tomorrow.

The potential problem is not cooling per se, but cooling without reintroducing oxygen, especially with basic equipment. You may have to rely on sulfites quite a bit.

There is a fundamental difference between pre-boiling and yeast-based deoxygenation: the former ceases to be effective as soon as boiling stops, the latter gives active protection against oxygen as long as the yeast is alive.

 

[Broothru]

YOS Downside: I need to actually clean my HLT (with its 50' 1/2" hex coil) instead of simply rinsing and wiping it dry...

Cheers!

Since I mash and boil in the same vessel (all-in-one electric), I grant you that my situation is a bit different. However, the exposed coils at the bottom of the kettle never require more than just a spray down, rinse and drying wipe down after use. That is to say, no additional effort than any other brew session.

The night before I fill up the strike water and heat it to about 95~104F, add the bread yeast and corn sugar, cover the pot, turn off the heat and go to bed. Next morning I heat the water up to strike temperature while crushing the grains, then mash in. Pretty damn simple.

 

[Broothru]

The potential problem is not cooling per se, but cooling without reintroducing oxygen, especially with basic equipment. You may have to rely on sulfites quite a bit.

There is a fundamental difference between pre-boiling and yeast-based deoxygenation: the former ceases to be effective as soon as boiling stops, the latter gives active protection against oxygen as long as the yeast is alive.

Not only does boiling/chilling with a copper immersion chiller cease to be effective with regards to deoxygenation immediately after the boiling stops, but the introduction of a copper chiller brings with it the potential for oxidizing the wort from the oxides of copper on the surfaces of the coil itself. Copper begins 'rusting' (oxidizing) very quickly after the surface is exposed to air after cleaning (polishing), even if you don't see the tell-tale green streaks. That's why I bought a stainless steel IC. Not as efficient as copper in heat transference, but it doesn't oxidize nearly as much (vitually none).

 

[mongoose33]

Clearly I'm prejudiced on this subject but the reason it exists is I was tired of all the hassle of boiling and cooling the strike water.

At some point I'll try it, and others have had enough success with it that I'm sure it works. I know LOB works--I've produced some amazing beers, I have a local bar that wants to sell my beer, friends who want to pay commercial prices for it. But I'm not licensed and that's that.

My only point was that if trying to get a newbie to LOB to try it, simpler was better. Since preboiling is pretty foolproof it seemed like a reasonable thing to have a newbie do.

And if they can't cool strike water, then I'd wonder if they were advanced enough to even be thinking about it.

 

[beersk]

At some point I'll try it, and others have had enough success with it that I'm sure it works. I know LOB works--I've produced some amazing beers, I have a local bar that wants to sell my beer, friends who want to pay commercial prices for it. But I'm not licensed and that's that.

My only point was that if trying to get a newbie to LOB to try it, simpler was better. Since preboiling is pretty foolproof it seemed like a reasonable thing to have a newbie do.

And if they can't cool strike water, then I'd wonder if they were advanced enough to even be thinking about it.

It really is worth a try. Especially if you do a full volume mash. I guess, for me, it just simplifies having to deal with boiling and cooling down to mash temp. I don't have a sink next to my stove, so carrying the kettle to the laundry room to chill it down just isn't appealing. I know preboiilng was the first method to come out for low o2 brewing, but YOS is next gen, dude

 

[Konadog]

The night before I fill up the strike water and heat it to about 95~104F, add the bread yeast and corn sugar, cover the pot, turn off the heat and go to bed. Next morning I heat the water up to strike temperature while crushing the grains, then mash in. Pretty damn simple.

Question, do you transfer your water to a different pot, off of any settled yeast, or do you just boil the entire mess and dough in?

Not knocking the process, just want to understand it as I would like to try this for my next brew.

 

[hmbrw4life]

Question, do you transfer your water to a different pot, off of any settled yeast, or do you just boil the entire mess and dough in?

Not knocking the process, just want to understand it as I would like to try this for my next brew.

You may be confusing 2 different process's. YOS, would cause the yeast sediment (minor), and preboil would need the boiling. If using YOS, you heat to strike, add antioxidants, and dough in, no boil. If using preboil you would preboil and cool, without yeast (and yeast sediment).

Also if using YOS the mash provides a phenomenal filter bed and zero yeast remains post mash (if thats the boil you were speaking about).

 

[Konadog]

No, not confusing 2 different process's. What I was asking is after using YOS, you need to heat the water to strike temp and dough in. I was just wondering if you just heat the water, or if you need to do something to remove yeast before that.

Also if using YOS the mash provides a phenomenal filter bed and zero yeast remains post mash (if thats the boil you were speaking about).

That's the heating/boil I was speaking about. Thanks!

 

[Bilsch]

No, not confusing 2 different process's. What I was asking is after using YOS, you need to heat the water to strike temp and dough in. I was just wondering if you just heat the water, or if you need to do something to remove yeast before that.

Heat to ~100F add yeast and sugar then hold for an hour. Next heat to strike temperature as is, no need to do anything with the little bit of yeast sediment.

 

[VikeMan]

Heat to ~100F add yeast and sugar then hold for an hour. Next heat to strike temperature as is, no need to do anything with the little bit of yeast sediment.

Has anyone calculated the impact of the yeast on mash pH? (Yes, I'm kidding. Mostly.)