What would you pay for real GF malt?

[muench1]

FWIW, I e-mailed Briess suggesting that they offer some GF oat malt in the future, and their response is that that's basically impossible for them unless they build a dedicated malt-house. Which makes me think that malt from Colorado Malting Co. probably can't ever be used in a commercial GF brewing operation, unless it turns out that tests for hordein and gliadin are sufficiently medically reliable (and beers made from CMC malt can pass such tests).

CMC takes gluten-free grain and malts it in a dedicated tank, so it is supposed to be gluten-free.

 

[DougmanXL]

Most GF products are 1.5-2x the cost of regular ones, however remember we are buying in bulk here vs at the supermarket (where they gouge)... so $3/lb for base millet malt (2-row) would be fine and other specialty roasts at $4/lb? Also Light and dark roasted Buckwheat would be great as well, maybe for $4/lb...

A theoretical IPA with 10lb base millet and 4lb crystal would cost me around $55 at those costs, which I think is great. A sorghum beer costs around $46, but I'd rather have the millet one.

I've mentioned this before, but the guys at Snowman Brewing in Toronto have convinced me that millet is probably the best grain for GF beer. Their beers were pretty close to real beer, their Belgian Triple had a wonderful malty flavour, very close to a real trappist ale (way better than green's). And their brown ale was amazing! Millet wheat-beer's sound good too. This guy made one and won an award.

I haven't seen a beer with the same malty character/mouthfeel that igliashon is describing... is it the same character as DFH's 60min IPA? I think it's the maris otter malt... I think crystal millet might work but I can't test that as I can't get usable millet here yet...

Also whats this about DAP? Is it in fermaid K? I saw that and at the last minute decided to throw in 2tsp of yeast nutrient this time, will that do the trick?

 

[powmonster]

Sorry mate, it ain't that easy. I've tried just about every combo of sugar-based GF adjuncts, and they just can't match the flavor of grains. I routinely calibrate my taste buds by taking small sips of real non-GF beer, just to keep myself from thinking too highly of my own GF brews, and there is a depth of flavor as well as a difficult-to-describe mouth feel that I just can't achieve with extracts and sugar syrups. There's a sort of chewy nuttiness to barley beers that I have been totally unable to duplicate with extracts, even with the addition of steeping grains. Roastiness is the only flavor I can realistically replicate, which is why my stouts are always my best beers. But for lighter beers, I've given up on the extracts and syrups as anything but an easy way to boost gravity, and am now working on ways to utilize grains as the direct source of fermentables.

To be honest, I'm not even sure if that will do it; I've tried Green's beers that use malted gluten-free grains and no extracts at all, and while they're much better beers than the extract-based alternatives, they are still noticeably thin and lacking in that chewy mouth feel. It could just be the styles, but even the amber is not too far off, taste-wise, from what I can achieve with sorghum and rice extract and candi syrup. I just hope I can do better, because if I can't, I might have to throw in the towel.

I agree that a true brew experience with GF can only come from grain. I don't know exactly what Greens is doing that they can't make a better product (especially with such a hefty price) because, as you pointed out, they are brewing from grain. I have one batch of IPA I believe is a "good beer" not just for being GF, I have a belgian and hefe style on the way... I am new to brewing and grain brewing and my effeciency sucks so far, but it has improved since that IPA and I have read that 95% can be attained... I also don't know max ppg for these grains (teff, millet, buckwheat, oats, rice), so that is another issue, one which can be solved if you have grains to brew from! Let me know if you want to exchange notes on GF AG brewing.

 

[powmonster]

CMC takes gluten-free grain and malts it in a dedicated tank, so it is supposed to be gluten-free.

I don't think that is true. Found 3 barley grains in just 1 lb of a 5 lb bag in my recent order of buckwheat from them. Not a big deal for me, but I think that proves that they just don't have the capacity in their establishment to dedicate much of anything to their GF offerings. Furthermore, they specifically have stated this to me and their website and emails state they can't guarantee 100% GF. I don't wish to speak poorly of them, I think they are on the right track, but establishing a new and refined offering to fit very specific needs as a small operation is really hard to do.

 

[powmonster]

I've been wondering for some time now, if you could buy good GF malted grain for partial- or all-grain brewing, what would you be willing to pay? I'm talking about real malt, comparable to barley malt.

I just bought 45 lbs from CO Malting Co, paid $116 w/ shipping to Denver from Alamosa (not too far)...
With my current efficiency (not good) I would need about 10lbs grain for 5 gallon batch of 5.0% abv beer. About $30 for grain for that batch. + 1.8 lbs rice hulls + yeast + hops... Not bad. Right now I brew 2.5-3gallon batches until I get better and develop good recipes/practices.

Based on Andrew Lavery's PDF on GF brewing, he gets about 95% efficiency using almost 7 lbs of grain in a 4.5 gallon batch. In this example he used:
Grain Bill:
6lbs Pale millet malt
5.25oz Crystal millet malt
5.25oz Munich millet malt
All ground to a flour... for a Pale Ale recipe.

 

[DougmanXL]

I just bought 45 lbs from CO Malting Co, paid $116 w/ shipping to Denver from Alamosa (not too far)...
With my current efficiency (not good) I would need about 10lbs grain for 5 gallon batch of 5.0% abv beer. About $30 for grain for that batch. + 1.8 lbs rice hulls + yeast + hops... Not bad. Right now I brew 2.5-3gallon batches until I get better and develop good recipes/practices.

Based on Andrew Lavery's PDF on GF brewing, he gets about 95% efficiency using almost 7 lbs of grain in a 4.5 gallon batch. In this example he used:
Grain Bill:
6lbs Pale millet malt
5.25oz Crystal millet malt
5.25oz Munich millet malt
All ground to a flour... for a Pale Ale recipe.

Oops, Snowman brewing must have been referring to the amount of wet grain (before malting and drying) when they said 17lbs of grain... So it was $3/lb regardless of roast type, and takes about 10lbs of base? Then that means my IPA would cost 9+3*10+3*4=$51, awesome!

So how much malty character have other people been able to achieve with millet? Do you guys think I could successfully make one of those nice malty IPA's? The malt character I noticed from the millet beers i tried is fading in memory now (also they weren't IPAs), but I recall that it was a vast improvement over sorghum...

 

[powmonster]

Millet by itself probably won't achieve the maltiness you're looking for but maybe the mash can be altered to provide you more of that, maybe compromising a little of the efficiency. Try it and find out. My IPA was a mix of malted ingredients: millet, red millet, sorghum, buckwheat and then I spiked it with rice syrup solids to get the gravity up to an appropriate range for an IPA. Came out well, but not as malty as it could have due to rice syrup solids, sorghum and my inexperience.

 

[muench1]

I don't think that is true. Found 3 barley grains in just 1 lb of a 5 lb bag in my recent order of buckwheat from them

Hmm, that's unfortunate. Talking to them I got the impression that it was being separated properly, but they just hadn't gotten somebody to come certify it yet. They have indicated that they plan to certify; I can only assume that they're trying to get their practices in order first.