What to pitch for a Flanders Red Soleria

[DeMerchant]

So I want to do a Flanders Red soleria and I'd like to keep turb to a minimum... I know I probably just need to RAHAHB and go with Roeselare blend direct pitch (and I may still), but I'd rather ferment with something clean (US05) then transfer off the turb into the soleria and pitch something to sour the beer at that point to age.

I guess there are a couple of questions:

• Does anyone see issues with that approch?
• What would be good to pitch in the secondary to get the desired level of sourness?
• Is there anything special I should do to make an approach like this work?

 

[Dmoney1911]

I'm remaking a Kriek because the first one was nowhere near sour enough. Just tasted like Brett. I pitched a 1 or 2 packs of Roeselare blend in the first one, and this time I pitched a pack of pure pediococcus after primary fermentation and 1 or 2 packs of Roeselare blend after several months. This new one has a massive pellicle and will probably be the level of sourness I'm hoping for, if not more.

Don't rely on only Roeselare if you like sour over funky wild beers

Your method sounds fine. I haven't transfered any of my sours to secondary, since there are so many other normal brewing rules of thumb that you completely shatter by going sour anyways. Never noticed any off flavor, other than sweaty horse blanket, after a year in the primary.

 

[beergolf]

Roselare will not be very sour for the first brew. Using the yeast cake for a second or third brew will be better. I always add some dregs from sours to the fermenter.For your first sour, you can start with Roselare blend then add some dregs from commercial sours everytime you drink some. This will help for the first pitch, get a little more sour and a little more complex.

I grab some of the yeast cake from every sour I do and have built up a mix of so many that I am not sure what is all in there, but the beers are getting much better, more complex and more sour. Brewing sours is a long term project. I have five carboys dedicated to sours. I brew one every two or three months. That way I can just bottle one and pitch the next on a yeast cake, add some cake from a different brew and get a very complex mix of bugs.

Brewing sours can get addicting. Just have to learn patience.

 

[coypoo]

IMO I'd choose something more "aggressive" than Roselare. I have a TYB Melange pLambic that I just took a sample of after 1 month that went from 1046-1006, and the pH is down to 3.4 and is tasting good already. I've never used Roselare, but seems like most people don't have good success early on with it (maybe on 2nd or 3rd pitch, but dont know how that would extrapolate to a solera)

 

[bonsai4tim]

I used roselare, if you are not in a hurry it eventually becomes sour. I did 15 gallons (to use a sanke keg for long term storage) with 5 gal on roselare, and the other 10 with 2 different types of belgian abby yeast. When i pull off 5 gal (every 6 months or so) I top off with 5 gallons fermented with a belgian yeast.

Adding dregs from sours you like will help.

Now I have 2 sanke's that I'm using solera style---pull 5 gal from #1, top it off from #2 and top off #2 with 5 gallons of "new" beer.

t

 

[cladinshadows]

• What would be good to pitch in the secondary to get the desired level of sourness?
• Is there anything special I should do to make an approach like this work?

In my experience only the dregs of commercial lambics, coupled with fairly aggressive temperatures will yield a pronounced sourness in a beer that was primaried with a "clean" yeast. First-generation Roeselare is unlikely to give you the sourness you probably want in a reasonable timeframe without extreme temps, and at extreme temps it can produce widely variable results. WLP655 or Wyeast 3278 may have a better chance, but they may not do it either. Your best bet is to drink a great commercial Lambic or Geuze at least once a month and add those to your tank at 70+ degrees F.

Also, remember that Flanders red ales are blended, pasteurized products. In a solera method the beer will likely attenuate near 100% and be too dry for a true Flanders red, so you'll have to blend with a less-sour, young beer to get the Flanders red balance. Worth the effort, but an effort nonetheless!

 

[microbusbrewery]

First-generation Roeselare is unlikely to give you the sourness you probably want in a reasonable timeframe without extreme temps, and at extreme temps it can produce widely variable results.

I know a lot of people claim Roeselare doesn't sour sufficiently on the first pitch. I've said it before and I'll say it again, in my experience this is a complete myth. Sure, it won't sour within a month, but I've had it sour in much less than 12 months in 65F-70F basement temps. My most recent example, I brewed a sour brown ale in November 2015 and transferred to a clean barrel in December 2015 and a fresh pack of Roeselare was pitched. I pulled a sample in May 2016 and the pH was down to 3.18 which should be sour enough to satisfy just about anyone. So just to recap, Roeselare dropped it to 3.18 in 5 months.

Also, remember that Flanders red ales are blended, pasteurized products.

Not all Flanders Reds are pasteurized and blended. Sure, Duchess and Rodenbach are, but you can't really make a blanket statement that all Flanders Reds are. Probably more accurate would be to say if old and younger versions are blended, then they're likely to be pasteurized (in order to prevent bottle bombs). Some that aren't pasteurized, Monk's Cafe Flemish Sour Red, Jolly Pumpkin La Roja, The Bruery Oude Tart, and if you're lucky enough to possess any, the pre-Lips of Faith versions of La Folie.

 

[DeMerchant]

Thanks for all the comments so far guys. Some follow up questions and comments:

WLP655 or Wyeast 3278 may have a better chance, but they may not do it either. Your best bet is to drink a great commercial Lambic or Geuze at least once a month and add those to your tank at 70+ degrees F.

That's kind of the path I'm leaning towards actually, clean ferment and then use WLP655 + dregs of whatever I can scrounge up.

My most recent example, I brewed a sour brown ale in November 2015 and transferred to a clean barrel in December 2015 and a fresh pack of Roeselare was pitched. I pulled a sample in May 2016 and the pH was down to 3.18 which should be sour enough to satisfy just about anyone.

When you say you pitched the Roeselare when you transfered in December, do you mean that from November to December you had fermented with something clean?

 

[Weezy]

Roeselare sours just fine. It just needs time and conditions, as was said. If you want it faster, grow up some jolly pumpkin dregs or order up some lacto brevis. I'd also suggest that you're better off, if you want more funk and sour, to pitch your bacteria, Brett, and sacc at the same time to give them all an even shot at the simple food. If you wait until a secondary, after sacc had their feast, is going to take longer to get funk and sour and you might not get a lot even then.

Edit: You said this was going to be a solera. How aggressive you want your strains also relates to how much you plan to draw off vs the total volume. You can download Mike Tonsmeire's spreadsheet which will tell you the average age of the beer in your solera, based on total volume and draw off rate.

For a solera, I Definitely recommend pitching everything at the same time. Give it 3-5 days in primary, then send it to solera. You could even inoculate the wort with a draw from the solera and add some sacc(in the future I've your solera is going)

 

[cladinshadows]

That's kind of the path I'm leaning towards actually, clean ferment and then use WLP655 + dregs of whatever I can scrounge up.

If you do the initial clean ferment it will ultimately reduce the potential for sourness. Depends on what you're going for, but it's very easy to blend less-sour beer in as desired if the initial batch is too sour. It's not as easy or quick to do it the other way around.

I know a lot of people claim Roeselare doesn't sour sufficiently on the first pitch. I've said it before and I'll say it again, in my experience this is a complete myth.

Interesting. I would guess, however, that my experience with it is more common so I'd still say DeMerchant should hedge his bets with something that is known to consistently produce a sour beer on first pitch. I wouldn't be surprised if a major factor is that I/most people ferment in glass carboys whereas you're using barrels. Perhaps the slow feed of oxygen through the wood helps develop more acetic acid which is quite a bit more pungently sour in flavor than lactic acid. A low level of acetic acid won't taste like vinegar, but it will increase the perception of sourness significantly.

Not all Flanders Reds are pasteurized and blended. Sure, Duchess and Rodenbach are, but you can't really make a blanket statement that all Flanders Reds are. Probably more accurate would be to say if old and younger versions are blended, then they're likely to be pasteurized (in order to prevent bottle bombs). Some that aren't pasteurized, Monk's Cafe Flemish Sour Red, Jolly Pumpkin La Roja, The Bruery Oude Tart, and if you're lucky enough to possess any, the pre-Lips of Faith versions of La Folie.

I was speaking of the classic style "Flanders Red Ale" as described by the BJCP - all of the noted classic commercial examples in the BJCP guidelines are pasteurized. None of the beers you've noted are called Flanders Red Ales by their brewers (except maybe Oude Tart), though they certainly draw inspiration from the classic style.

 

[DeMerchant]

If you do the initial clean ferment it will ultimately reduce the potential for sourness. Depends on what you're going for, but it's very easy to blend less-sour beer in as desired if the initial batch is too sour. It's not as easy or quick to do it the other way around.

I guess my concern is that I'll have all the yeast, turb, etc sitting on the bottom of my soleria for an extended period. I suppose there's not really anything stopping me from using Roeselare in the primary, and then transferring over to the soleria for bulk aging but that just seems like a needless step and added risk of unwanted o2 pickup. I guess if I do a clean primary ferment the same thing is happening...

 

[microbusbrewery]

I wouldn't be surprised if a major factor is that I/most people ferment in glass carboys whereas you're using barrels. Perhaps the slow feed of oxygen through the wood helps develop more acetic acid which is quite a bit more pungently sour in flavor than lactic acid. A low level of acetic acid won't taste like vinegar, but it will increase the perception of sourness significantly.

Nope, just my most recent example of doing a Roeselare pitch was in a barrel (as in Roeselare-only for the souring). Acetic acid production can happen with Brett when it's exposed to excessive amounts of oxygen, but that's not the case here; it's lactic acid. I also use glass and Better Bottles for sours. I consistently get low pH with 1st pitches of Roeselare no matter the vessel. That's why I say, IME it's a myth that Roeselare can't produce a very sour beer on the first pitch.

I've done somewhere in the neighborhood of 28 sour beers in the past four years. I'd have to go back and check my notes, but probably half of them used Roeselare. I can only think of one time that I ran into an issue, and it was with an older smack pack that I suspect had been mishandled...if I remember correctly, it was a couple months past its "best by" date when I bought it and it was another month or two before I got around to using it. I ended up buying a new pack and pitched it after a couple weeks.

Without hard data it's just a guess, but my guess is the majority of the problems people run into with LAB in blends like Roeselare is mishandled packages and/or too high of hoping rates; bittering or late additions. I use aged hops in almost all my sours so very low IBUs (probably close to zero). I also never aerate when I'm pitching a blend that contains LAB. I'm not trying to say that people are making this stuff up, I'm just saying I've had really good results with Roeselare and it's not like I'm doing anything super magical.

 

[microbusbrewery]

When you say you pitched the Roeselare when you transfered in December, do you mean that from November to December you had fermented with something clean?

Yep, clean primary followed by a fresh pack of Roeselare when it went in the barrel.

We also had a club project that was supposed to be a clean Baltic Porter aged in a red wine barrel. We started noticing some Brett off flavors after a few months. Apparently Brett contaminations are super common in red wine barrels. We ended up pitching Roeselare a few months after the Brett infection was detected and it soured quite nicely. That said, I don't believe I have a pH reading on that one. If I had to venture a guess, I'd say it's in the neighborhood of 3.3 - 3.4. We also let it ride for over a year so I don't know at what point it in the timeline that it started to become noticeably sour. Since it was intended to be a clean beer, it was hopped at the normal rate for a Baltic Porter.

 

[Quaker]

I'll second microbus's comment on hopping rates. I've started increasing my hops, because my first beers developed too much sourness for my tastes. The exception was the Roeselare which I felt was well balanced, yet sour still at 18months when blended with others to bottle. I use dried hops from my backyard which I just store in an open paper bag in the basement and are at least a year old when used. No idea their AA%, but could be decent still. I mash hop for simplicity and to decrease their bittering effectiveness yet impart other compounds for flavor complexity in the wort (no side by side or clue if it's doing anything for me). Originally I was only using about 4g per gallon of targeted post boil volume. My latest batches I've been pushing 12g per gallon, but recent batches are on multi-generational slurries which may be stronger acidifiers now. Software predicted my earlier batches to be single digit IBUs when assuming 8% AA mash hops. Reality should have been lower even with minimal aging of the hops.

 

[RevKev]

Never used it but always heard good things about ECY

 

[microbusbrewery]

Never used it but always heard good things about ECY

Yeah, I have too. I have a few Flanders Reds going right now, one with ECY BugFarm and one with ECY BugCounty.

 

[Dmoney1911]

I'm not sure why I'm having an issue with Roeselare only, then. I have made a lactobacillus only beer, which was very sour, and have made a beer where I added Roeselare and Wyeast pedio which is also sour. The Roeselare only batch hasn't shown any hint of sourness. I made sure there was extra carapils or maltodextrin added to give the wild stuff something extra (did this with the other 2 batches as well). I added the Roeselare along with the primary strain, and used 6 ounces of 3 year old hops. The hops had been at room temp the whole time, and though they were vac sealed they had no hop smell at all to them. The blend wasn't expired. Maybe if I give it another go I'll have better results, but I'd rather not take the chance and just add some extra souring bacteria along with any yeast or blend I pitch. I definitely plan on brewing more sours though; it's getting addicting.

 

[Quaker]

6oz of 3 yr old hops likely is your issue (I'm assuming a 5 gallon batch). Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing they were some NW American hop which originally had a moderately high AA%, were stored in a sealed in a bag (maybe not vacuum packed or N2 flushed) at room temp condition. I would expect with that size charge, they still had too high of IBU even in their degraded state. Now if you stored them in a loose paper bag in your attic those 3 years, well then maybe that's not the problem.

 

[Quaker]

Regarding ECY, I've used ECY20 Bug County, ECY01 BugFarm, and ECY02 Flanders. The ECY02 was my favorite and produced a tasty leather and Cherry funky beer which didn't really need blending. My initial ECY20 batches have more of a pineapple or peach note to them. Those were brewed in October 2015 through January 2016. The ECY01 was brewed later last year and hasn't been used for blending or bottling yet as well as new batches the the ECY20 (couldn't get new ECY02 until last weekend). As of now, if I had to pick 1 strain to use for a single vessel beer (no chance to blend), I would either go with ECY02 or the Yeast Bay Melange.

My current pipeline has 14 x 5 gallon batches in carboys plus various 1gallon jugs and a few 3 gallon carboys with brew dates spaced out back to summer 2015. So I have a lot of variety to play with. I just ordered a new pitches of ECY02, their Oude Bruin, and Senne Valley blends to use in new batches this spring to replace beer I've recently blended (incl. the ECY02 batch mentioned above) and racked onto various fruits for bottling soon.

My pipeline exceeds my consumption by far. But I'm having fun, and the wife doesn't need that corner of the basement anyways.

 

[Dmoney1911]

Just looked up my notes from that batch, a kriek lambic (it was 5 gallons). I actually only used 4 oz: 2 oz styrian goldings (Hop Union), 1oz U.S. Goldings, 1 oz Willamette. I doubt the hops were the issue, especially since pedio is more hop tolerant and I think lacto is more resilient than it gets credit for (even l. brevis). I remember reading that the real lambic brewers will use larger amounts of hops than normal, but they're so old so it doesn't matter. I'm not sure if I'll ever figure out what happened with that one. The brett definitely took over, and I did pitch another roeselare pack when I added my cherries 8 months later, so maybe that had something to do with it. It's also worth noting I didn't make a starter with those Roeselare blends.

 

[madscientist451]

Add to the recommendation for ECY bug farm. Primary with S04 or similar, rack to proper size secondary with the ECY. Haven't tried the other ECY offerings.

 

[microbusbrewery]

6oz of 3 yr old hops likely is your issue (I'm assuming a 5 gallon batch). Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing they were some NW American hop which originally had a moderately high AA%, were stored in a sealed in a bag (maybe not vacuum packed or N2 flushed) at room temp condition. I would expect with that size charge, they still had too high of IBU even in their degraded state. Now if you stored them in a loose paper bag in your attic those 3 years, well then maybe that's not the problem.

+1, even though they're degraded, that's a pretty big dose. I keep mine in paper bags on top of my ferm chamber fridge in the garage. It can get pretty warm in there during the summer. By the time I use them they're past the cheesy stage, basically neutral aroma. My dosing rate is also low, usually between 14-28g for a 60 minute addition in a 5 gallon batch.

 

[DeMerchant]

So to update on what I ended up doing:

• I brewed a 15 gal batch with at a low hoping rate (5IBU from 28g of EKG)
• I split it into 5 carboys and used US05 on all three batches and at the same time pitched Roeselare in one, Roeselare + some dregs in another, and finally WPL644 in the third

My current plan is:

• I brewed that on March 15th, so I'm going to leave it sit for 3 months before moving to my soleria... I'll give everything a taste for any major off flavours, without expecting a great beer at this point... I'm going to cold crash it for a few days before transferring to get as much crap to drop out as I can
• When I move it there will still be a fair bit of headspace, I'll do my best to purge it but I'll probably pitch some hydrated DME at the same time
• I'm going to brew a second batch of the original beer; I may adjust the SRM as I think it's a little dark right now; I'm also going to doubt the IBUs to 10 after reading American Sour beer and the discussion on lacto becoming gradually more resistant to hops gradually
• I'll put the wort directly on the sediment from my previous 3 batches and leave that for 90 days before moving to my soleria
• I'm going to figure a good way that I want to save my culture for future use... Ideally it would be fun to get something of a house sour blend I think
• And then we play the waiting game...

Any thoughts?

Oh, on a somewhat unrelated note I also bought a pound of whole leaf EKG hops, put them in paper bags and have been storing them in my basement for future use!

 

[twistedjosh]

I've found my first generation Roeselares to not get super sour. I like using a couple different Flemish yeast blends for complexity. I use a half barrel keg for my solera to house my mother culture and just pick what possible blenders I like to mix into it, it's constantly changing over time. Wlp644 is a nice yeast, I end up getting a clean farmhouse taste out of it that sours over then next couple months, really great tasting in a light beer, have not tried it in a Flanders red, if you have any input on the flavors at tasting I would appreciate it. Cheers

 

[TheHairyHop]

So to update on what I ended up doing:

• I brewed a 15 gal batch with at a low hoping rate (5IBU from 28g of EKG)
• I split it into 5 carboys and used US05 on all three batches and at the same time pitched Roeselare in one, Roeselare + some dregs in another, and finally WPL644 in the third

you probably already know this, but 644 is just sacch. I don't think you'll really see anything interesting happening with that batch. However, if you do, I would love to hear about it! I've used 644 a few times and never got much out of it

 

[DeMerchant]

you probably already know this, but 644 is just sacch. I don't think you'll really see anything interesting happening with that batch. However, if you do, I would love to hear about it! I've used 644 a few times and never got much out of it

Yeah... embarrassingly I didn't actually realize that (should have read the info more closely). Oh well, it's all getting blended and it'll be an interesting one to try. Am I correct that at this point adding lactobacillus won't really do much, but also won't hurt anything?

 

[Dmoney1911]

I think you'd still get some sourness from adding lacto. There should still be a decent amount of unfermented sugar for them if only a sacch strain was used. If you wanted even more of a punch, though, you could add .25 pounds of maltodextrin in a small amount of sterile water to give them even more to eat. That would add to your future house strain as well.

 

[cladinshadows]

I agree with Dmoney. More organisms will definitely be able to impact it, especially with some maltodextrin added. Personally I have found that the dregs of commercial lambics will bring a lot of character even when pitched late... Might be an idea to try if your worried that you won't get the funk and acid you are hoping for. Lindemans Cuvee Rene and Oud Beersel oude gueuze vielle are particularly potent and readily available (at least in southern CA).

 

[DeMerchant]

I've taken everyones advice so far, and now I'm almost ready to move my first batch from my carboys into the soleria. I've also started to stock up on some unpasturized sour beer that I like so that I can incorporate it to develop my house culture. Now I'm considering the best way to get the degs to really contribute. I've got a few options in mind:

• Just pitch the dregs into the soleria
• Add the dregs to the next batch I'm planning to move to the soleria along with the house culture
• Add the dregs to the next batch I'm planning to move to the soleria by themselves
• Do a bottle starter for the dregs to build them up a bit, then pitch into the soleria

I'm sure I could come up with more options, but these are what's currently floating around in my head. Thoughts?

 

[microbusbrewery]

I think you'd be fine doing any of them. Definitely make a starter if you're only going to pitch them into the next batch. And don't aerate the starter like you normally would with a yeast starter.

BTW, I never took Spanish so I'm not the authority, but it's solera, not soleria...I believe soleria refers to floors or flooring whereas solera is the aging and fractional blending process.