What? They make Beers sour now?

[Vedexent]

Last weekend, I had my first sour beer.

I hadn't even heard of sour beers before, much less tasted one.

But - wow - it was amazing! And so was the one after that, and so on...

So, I started reading up on the process, and it sounded as dark and arcane as anything Gandalf could have conjured in the Lord of the Rings: Oak barrels inoculated with micro-biomes that have been carefully inoculated and managed for 200 years, secondary fermentation times pushing 24 months, tracing the evolution and development (and family trees?!) of "sour cakes" lovingly recycled with fresh wort just as any home baker managing sourdough starter would do, etc.

As amazing as all that sounded, it also sounded light-years beyond my reach as a new home brewer.

Then I discovered "Kettle Souring".

OK - I'm not an expert, and probably never will be, but that sounds like something even I could do.

Sure - it probably misses the possible nuances and complexities that are possible with mixed fermentation lovingly carried on for years in the secondary fermenter. It might be the "sour patch kids" sour flavor compared to the "balsamic vinegar" sour of created over years, using centuries-honed complex techniques.

But I gotta start somewhere

So ... is it really as simple as it sounds? Can I really just take something like a simple Hefeweizen recipe (note I'm calling the recipes simple, not the possible nuances of that style) or a lightly-hopped SMaSH, mash, boil for 10 minutse, innoculate with lacto, hold at 100F for 3-5 days, boil to sterlize, and proceed with a normal yeast brewing process?

 

[doomy86]

Yes, it really is that simple. No need to boil it again after souring, just add the yeast after 3 days. I made alot of sours like this but i think they are pretty boring. I'm experimenting with aging, blending and fruits now.

Cheers!

 

[Jayzon]

Yes, it really is that simple. No need to boil it again after souring, just add the yeast after 3 days. I made alot of sours like this but i think they are pretty boring. I'm experimenting with aging, blending and fruits now.

Cheers!

Can you elaborate on boring? Is it the process or the flavor? I'm curious to know if kettle souring can stand up to commercial sours in terms of taste.

 

[Vedexent]

I was thinking of boiling post-souring because my fermenters are plastic, and that would kill off the lacto. It also "clears the board" for an uninhibited yeast fermentation.

I don't think that kettle soured beer would be as complex as - some - commercial sours, as you have the opportunity for more nuanced souring with blended fruits, mixed strain fermenting, aging and mellowing, etc. for extended periods in the fermenters. Hence - for some people - boring.

With the caveat that this is all very new to me - so I could be way off base on that

 

[Calder]

I think you have a pretty good understanding of the whole process and the short-comings of kettle souring.

I do both. Yes, you can get a light refreshing sour very quickly with lacto. I don't sour in the kettle, I use a close fermenter.

Some people just toss in some grains - I've never done it. I believe if you can keep the wort above 110 F, you will nit get the putrid smells created by clostridium. I add lacto, usually from probiotics. I maintain temperature between 90 and 100 F. I usually leave it 7 days. Taste the wort before you move from this stage, because once you add yeast you will not sour any more. I have a heating blanket that I wrap around my fermenter.

I don't boil after souring, but you can.

Lacto does not like hops. I never use hops prior to souring. I usually make Berliners and add dry hops. But you could boil after souring and add hops. I want to sour a stout at some time that will require boiling after ...... but there are also a lot of other beers I want to make.

It is simple. No hops. You can add hops later if you want. And taste the wort before you add yeast or boil to ensure you have it soured enough.

 

[doomy86]

Can you elaborate on boring? Is it the process or the flavor? I'm curious to know if kettle souring can stand up to commercial sours in terms of taste.

Its just sour, you could add lactic acid and get a similar taste.

Probably this is because i used a pure lacto culture. If you sour "wild" by just adding a handfull of grain you will get more complex flavors.

 

[beergolf]

Kettle sours beers are decent, but lack complexity. Brewing sours is actually very easy. They just take a long time. Get a pipeline going and it is very easy

Just get a recipe and boil it up. Add a pack Roselare blend. Now the first generation of Roselare is pretty tame, but the best thing to do is add some dregs from other sours that you drink. Let it sit for a year or so and you will have a good sour. You can add fruit or oak if you want for the last few months. Every time you brew a sour you can either grab some of the yeat cake and add it to the next batch, or even just pitch a new batch on top of the yeast cake. This will start to build the complexity.

Brewing sours does get addicting. I have five carboys dedicated to them. I brew a new one every two or three months to keep thing going. I now have a collection of different yeast cakes that I add occasionally to the brews. Yummm.

I fyou are interested in sours, pick up the "American Sour Beer" book by Michael Tonsmeire. Very good resource.

 

[jimmypop13]

I bought this Love Child beer a few weeks ago. Man I can't do it. I kept taking sips because I didn't wanna waste the bottle but man it was sour. I just couldn't get into it. Is there a different sour you guys might recommend to me that would be available in my area? I don't wanna write off all sours based on just one

 

[dyqik]

My first sour was the tart of darkness clone from more beer. That got me a supply of roseleare, with some oak and dark beer left in it after bottling (and moving the carboy twice when I moved house). My second sour was a trivial light DME wort put on the yeast cake, with the dark dregs and oak. If anything that's more complex and better. For minimal investment, except buying a couple of glass carboys, and patience, you can get some incredibly interesting beers.

 

[oceanic_brew]

I do sour kettle in a corny keg.

However first I make a sour starter by adding handful of grains to a weak 2L starter, the starter wort PH is dropped into optimum range with lactic acid and then the starter is kept temp controlled to 100f wrapped in a towel on a heat plate. I flush the starter out with co2.

This helps ensure that I'm pitching a healthy large lacto culture into my wort.

I collect 4.5 gallons of first and second runnings wort into the corny keg, put the rest into my kettle and into the fermentation chamber set low enough to inhibit bacterial growth. I lower the PH of the wort to 4.5 which helps the lacto but also stops the growth of some other nasties.

I pitch the lacto starter into the wort through a sanitized strainer to remove the grains and then I keep the corny keg at 100f for the duration. The keg is flushed with co2 after each time I check PH.
I typically sour down to 3.5 - 3 overnight.

Good luck

 

[oceanic_brew]

I've done many brews that way but they are no doubt lacking the complexity of a true sour. I have however found a way to work with ingredients to mimic or mask this.

I have an amazing recipe I've put together for a sour raspberry doppelbock if you'd like to have it. It's a proven procedure that I've scored very high in competitions with.

It's quite the process considering I make a massive step up of a starter about a week before, develop the wort through a triple decoction, sour it with a bit more of a complex kettle souring than some, then it's lagered using the quick Lager method and aged/lagered on two pounds of raspberry before bottle conditioning.

I've compared this to a few similar commercial examples that had been fermented and soured the traditional way and although my brew is a little cleaner it has a lot of subtle complexity that makes up for the one dimensional aspect of the lacto quick sour.

I'm planning to post a detailed recipe on here, I'll PM you with the link when done. If you have the time, the equipment, and the patience it's well worth the wait.

Really if you think about it I just sampled my last batch at 8 weeks and it tasted like something aged for a year. All my regular doppelbocks take 3-4 months before they are ready.

 

[Morrey]

Try this;



https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=594994

I doubt you'll find this boring.

 

[doomy86]

Try this;



https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=594994

I doubt you'll find this boring.

Thank you, seems like a nice combination. Will try this for sure!

 

[Sadu]

I did a 1 gallon kettle soured Berliner weisse as my first attempt. Tossed in the grains because I'm a cheapskate. Total ingredient cost worked out to be something like 20c per pint bottle, lol.
It came out OK, enjoyable but not if I had to drink 5 gallons. I should have let it sour more. Definitely going to try another one and try to nail these before moving onto the hardcore sour stuff.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I think quite a few commercial sours (in the US) are kettle-soured nowadays since they are much easier to mass-produce and cost less. In my opinion they are usually pretty good but don't compare to the product of a traditional mixed-fermentation method.

That said, I agree kettle-souring is a good place to start for new brewers. I just did my first kettle sour using some probiotic capsules. Preliminary tasting shows really good results.

 

[Vedexent]

I did a 1 gallon kettle soured Berliner weisse as my first attempt. Tossed in the grains because I'm a cheapskate. Total ingredient cost worked out to be something like 20c per pint bottle, lol.
It came out OK, enjoyable but not if I had to drink 5 gallons. I should have let it sour more. Definitely going to try another one and try to nail these before moving onto the hardcore sour stuff.

I am curious - and will probably have to experiment - as to the differences between the results of commercial lacto strains, and the "natural whole grain" route, as well.

 

[owmatooth]

if anyone is looking for a very drinkable sour, try Bell's Oarsman- currently my favorite sour. Also New Belgian Snapshot was great, but I think it was a limited release and it's gone now. At least gone from my local stores. I think this summers crop of beer will be moving away from the lemon shandy phase we saw last year and into the sour/tart beers.

 

[Morrey]

if anyone is looking for a very drinkable sour, try Bell's Oarsman- currently my favorite sour. Also New Belgian Snapshot was great, but I think it was a limited release and it's gone now. At least gone from my local stores. I think this summers crop of beer will be moving away from the lemon shandy phase we saw last year and into the sour/tart beers.

I agree with your projections. Trending now are NE Juicy IPA's and various sours ranging from quick produced Gose styles to long term aged barrel sours.

I visited New Belgian's Taproom in Asheville NC last year when they just opened. I immediately discovered Snap Shot and was saddened to see the supply dry up in my beer store. Maybe there will be a new batch released this spring.

 

[Morrey]

I am curious - and will probably have to experiment - as to the differences between the results of commercial lacto strains, and the "natural whole grain" route, as well.

I have never tried the natural whole grain method due to what I consider the potential for a hit or a miss. Seems hard to know calculated results that could be replicated for consistency. No strain selection or control of any kind. The pro is the low cost. But worth a try to say you have done it.

Lab produced strains such as L Plantarum kettle sours wort within 48 hours to very predictable levels when used from a starter. The strain specific L Plantarum can sour at room temp and I can count on the ph being 3.2 in 48 hours. Very predictable and repeatable. I buy tabs from Swanson along with my regular vitamins and get free shipping. I use 5 caps in a 5.5G batch and invest less than a dollar for those 5 caps. Omega OYL-605 is a great product but sets you back $10.

 

[owmatooth]

Morrey-
What kind of flavor profile does the sour from L Plantarum give to the beer. I've tried souring by adding a few ounces of Lactic Acid from my LHBS, and while it soured it, it felt very artificial and thin, none of the complexities I would hope for in a regular sour. Though I'm trying to find a shortcut to Brett I still want to retain the sour components that are apparently more than just the acid level.

 

[RPh_Guy]

That's akin to taking water, adding some vodka, hops, bitters, & sugar and calling it beer ...It just doesn't quite get there.
Lacto produces great flavor and from what I've read, adding acid is far inferior and chemical-tasting. Kettle souring is pretty straightforward and doesn't require any additional equipment or much additional time. Totally worth giving it a try if you love sours!

Cheers

 

[MrFancyPlants]

I believe mainly just brings sour. I did a mixed fermentation with S-05 and L Plantarum on my (~6%abv) ESB base (no hops and a very small amount of mugwort in the boil), and it turned out nice and fruity (and very sour) despite no fruit additions. I believe the fruitiness was due to fermenting the S-05 out in the shed durning a cold spring. Non beer drinkers really liked this one, which made me realize that many people who don't like beer probably don't like hop bitterness.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Also it is possible to add Brett directly to bottles at bottling time to a kettle-soured beer, bypassing any risk of contaminating equipment.
I'd be curious to hear from anyone who has done this and how it compares to regular kettle sour and mixed fermentation.