What temp and duration do you hopstand?

[pwessinger]

Hop oils are not the only part of the hop that contributes to aroma and taste. Thiols have a huge impact on hop aroma and flavor as well. Some of those actually increase with boiling times.

All the comments about adding hops just at FO and getting crazy bitterness perplex me or adding at FO and chilling immediately? You’re sure it’s IBU “bitterness”? When everything is correct with water, pH, etc you should only perceive IBUs at the very front of your pallete then it should fade rather quickly. If you’re getting bitterness that lasts or you perceive at the end of each sip that has nothing to do with IBUs.

Finally got some fresh Tree House this week and was enjoying a Doubleganger last night and how bitter it actually was. But again only bitterness at the very front of the palette. It completely fades and leaves you with nothing. Very light and so easy to drink. The opposite of almost every other commercial NEIPA out there.

I wasn't 100% sold that it was bitterness at first, however I gave some samples to several BJCP judges and they both agreed - great beer, but far too bitter.

 

[Ninoid]

Less than a month ago I was bottled APA, which I put all the hop into a hopstand. In the beginning he had good bitterness and aroma, but he quickly lost his aroma, and now bitterness is noticeably diminishing.
The beer where I used FWH hop did not lose bitterness over time. I have another batch with all hopstand hop on conditioning so I'll see if this batch will repeat the quick loss of flavor and bitterness.

 

[Dgallo]

Less than a month ago I was bottled APA, which I put all the hop into a hopstand. In the beginning he had good bitterness and aroma, but he quickly lost his aroma, and now bitterness is noticeably diminishing.
The beer where I used FWH hop did not lose bitterness over time. I have another batch with all hopstand hop on conditioning so I'll see if this batch will repeat the quick loss of flavor and bitterness.

This is typical. When you add hops to boil the alpha acids have an increase in isomerization causing them to become more bitter. When they are added they the whirlpool, the lower temperature causes less isomerization so there will be less bitterness. Aroma and flavor fade rather quickly in general but especially when hoppy beers are bottled. Bottling allows for greater risk of oxidization, which is a killer of hoppy beers

 

[Ninoid]

No matter what the hop was added to the hopstand, the bitterness was good in the first few weeks after the bottling.

 

[Dgallo]

No matter what the hop was added to the hopstand, the bitterness was good in the first few weeks after the bottling.

Yes that’s typically hop bittness fades over time. Usually become noticeable at a months time

 

[Ninoid]

Yes that’s typically hop bittness fades over time. Usually become noticeable at a months time

This means that it is necessary to boil a smaller portion of hop for bitterness, and the rest in hopstand or even better dry hop. How much time do have for a dry hop fade in bottled beer?

 

[Dgallo]

Depends on the style you’re going after. Some breweries will hit a bittering addition and then not put another hop in until hopstand. some will even wait til dryhoping as long as the bittering charge hits their intended ibus. Other breweries will crush late and pick up all their bitterness with their late additions with the idea that they will gain flavor and aroma while gaining bitterness. I believe in the latter though my experience. First hop goes in at 8 mins til F.O. and I’ll use 12 oz from then til kegging

 

[Ninoid]

12 oz on 8 minutes before flameout and this is all?

 

[Dgallo]

In all. Usually 3 oz from 8 mins to flame out. 4.5 oz whirlpool @150 and then 4.5 dryhop 3 days before keg

 

[Miraculix]

In all. Usually 3 oz from 8 mins to flame out. 4.5 oz whirlpool @150 and then 4.5 dryhop 3 days before keg

I tried something similar last two batches. Half went in at about ten to five minutes before flame out, then cooling it down to about 75c and then from there one hour hop stand worth the rest. No dry hop, just to be able to see what's going on. Worked quite well!

 

[Dgallo]

I tried something similar last two batches. Half went in at about ten to five minutes before flame out, then cooling it down to about 75c and then from there one hour hop stand worth the rest. No dry hop, just to be able to see what's going on. Worked quite well!

It’s certainly a good way to get bolder flavor with less ibus. I would suggest trying a dryhop next time. Even if it’s a smaller amount like 2/3 oz. It really does benefit the beer greatly.

 

[Footballandhops]

I just cut off the heat and dump my hops in, whirlpool for 20min and then cut the chiller on. I get great aroma and hop flavor this way.

Everytime I try to chill a bit before whirlpool, the bitterness is just very underwhelming.

 

[Dgallo]

Everytime I try to chill a bit before whirlpool, the bitterness is just very underwhelming.

Well that is the purpose of the whirlpool, to obtain flavor with little bitterness. If you are looking for more bitterness hit some in boil

 

[user 254557]

For a long time I have been wondering what some of the techniques for this are, I have just started getting my grains and hops in bulk so I am wondering about hop schedules. Until now I have always brewed a kit from NB, its good but I wanted to get grains in bulk since I now have a 10 gallon system, I have two 12lb bags of Golden Promise, i am going to fire up my BIAB to do 2 5 gallon batches and play with the hop schedule a little bit, I will be doing a SMaSH w/citra, and I also buy my hops in bulk so I have plenty, wondering what everyone thinks about a schedule, 1 1/2 oz a@ 60 then 4 1/2 @ flamout, I havent put anything into beersmith yet but will before I get into the brew day.

 

[Dgallo]

For a long time I have been wondering what some of the techniques for this are, I have just started getting my grains and hops in bulk so I am wondering about hop schedules. Until now I have always brewed a kit from NB, its good but I wanted to get grains in bulk since I now have a 10 gallon system, I have two 12lb bags of Golden Promise, i am going to fire up my BIAB to do 2 5 gallon batches and play with the hop schedule a little bit, I will be doing a SMaSH w/citra, and I also buy my hops in bulk so I have plenty, wondering what everyone thinks about a schedule, 1 1/2 oz a@ 60 then 4 1/2 @ flamout, I havent put anything into beersmith yet but will before I get into the brew day.

Is the 1.5 oz at 6 for 10 gallons or 5? At 10gallons that will give you a nice bitterness since citra is usually around 11-14 aa, if it’s for 5 it will be pretty firm. Only thing i would comment is IMO it’s a waste of citra to use it at 60 since you’ll boil off that beautiful flavor and aroma. I would use magnum at 60 instead and save the citra for later. But if you really want to single hop it than go for it. Won’t hurt any

 

[user 254557]

Im doing 5 gallons, that comment I made about citra @ 60 was just kinda just throwing numbers out there, Ill have to see what I have for bittering but I have amassed a decent stock pile of hops that should be fine instead of the fresh citra. How much magnum @ 60 for that "nice bitterness" you spoke of earlier?

 

[rodwha]

I have made a no bittering addition IPA once and felt it peculiarly missing the bitter. Now I use 1/4-1/2 oz of hops for bittering to get me around 15-20 IBUs and load up at the end. It seems just about perfect to me with a small bittering addition.

 

[Miraculix]

It’s certainly a good way to get bolder flavor with less ibus. I would suggest trying a dryhop next time. Even if it’s a smaller amount like 2/3 oz. It really does benefit the beer greatly.

I tried it once together with such a big late addition and hopstand, a split batch and the dry hopping didn't contribute much. Wasn't worth the hustle, aromas and flavours were already big at the not dry hoped half and the dry hopped version had a bit stronger smell but that was really it.

 

[Dgallo]

I tried it once together with such a big late addition and hopstand, a split batch and the dry hopping didn't contribute much. Wasn't worth the hustle, aromas and flavours were already big at the not dry hoped half and the dry hopped version had a bit stronger smell but that was really it.

I have greatly difference gained through dryhoping without oxygen. I feel it actually makes my beers what they are but I won’t ever argue with someone’s experience, you know what works for you.

 

[Miraculix]

I have greatly difference gained through dryhoping without oxygen. I feel it actually makes my beers what they are but I won’t ever argue with someone’s experience, you know what works for you.

Could be that the oxygen is really muting my dry hop flavours, wouldn't surprise me tbh as I'm fermenting in my boil kettle which is not air tight. But the convenience wins here over hop flavour in my case!

 

[Ninoid]

I have made a no bittering addition IPA once and felt it peculiarly missing the bitter. Now I use 1/4-1/2 oz of hops for bittering to get me around 15-20 IBUs and load up at the end. It seems just about perfect to me with a small bittering addition.

Next time I plan something like that because I see that only the hopstand does not provide satisfying bitterness for a longer time.

 

[Conehead]

Has anyone done it brewing a Pilsner? I did it with my Helles and it is still in the fermenter. 1 oz. of Saaz at 170 F. I didn't pause the chiller, just left it on.

 

[Dgallo]

Has anyone done it brewing a Pilsner? I did it with my Helles and it is still in the fermenter. 1 oz. of Saaz at 170 F. I didn't pause the chiller, just left it on.

Not a Pilsner but I did it to a saison and it came out great. I would say any beer you’d like hop presence with lower bitterness.

 

[Clyde McCoy]

I’m with you here. My hop stands are at 150 and I hold the temp within 5 degrees for 90 minutes.

I read an article where they conducted a comparable study of total hop oil content in beers and the perceived flavor impact numerous whirlpool and dry hopping schedules. all beers had the same water profile, grain bill, hops, yeast and fermentation temp. Each beer was hopped at a rate of 2 oz per gallon in total hopping. For example. One beer was 40% whirlpool at 160 for 30 minutes and 60% dryhops at 3 days before kegging. The dry hops ranged from 5 day to 1 day before keg. The whirlpools were a little more involved they ranged in temps from 180-130 and from 30-90 minutes.

The combo that had the most oil content was the 70% whirlpool at 170 for 90 minutes 30% at day 5. However the combo that was chosen to have the greatest perceived flavor and was the most preferred from the blind tasting was the 50% whirlpool at 150 for 90 minutes and 50% dryhop 2 days before kegging.

Did anyone else read this study? I can’t seem to find the link.

Do you know the reference for this? Sounds like a good read.

 

[Dgallo]

Do you know the reference for this? Sounds like a good read.

I believe this was the one I was referencing here;
https://community.mbaa.com/HigherLo...cbc-9836-48d8-ab6b-d6b8b53e7792&forceDialog=1
Edit* actually I don’t think this was it but it was very similar to this one, so I’m thinking the one I was referencing was conducted by them too

 

[Clyde McCoy]

I believe this was the one I was referencing here;
https://community.mbaa.com/HigherLo...cbc-9836-48d8-ab6b-d6b8b53e7792&forceDialog=1
Edit* actually I don’t think this was it but it was very similar to this one, so I’m thinking the one I was referencing was conducted by them too

Thanks for posting this, enjoyed it. These two (much) smaller experiments interestingly came to the same conclusion in regards to maximizing flavor: flameout + 10' rest.

https://alchemyoverlord.wordpress.com/2015/06/27/late-hop-experiment-1-a-k-a-hop-stand-experiment-3/
https://www.homebrewersassociation....-boilwhirlpool-hop-additions-bitterness-beer/
I haven't personally tested this enough to comment.

Edit - Lawson's recipe is flameout + 30' rest.