What temp and duration do you hopstand?

[Ninoid]

Ideally you should leave the lid off until wort gets close to 140*.

170 (75'C) is good temperature for lid, but above 80'C not (DMS).

 

[couchsending]

170 (75'C) is good temperature for lid, but above 80'C not (DMS).

True

You’re generally safe down to around 140 but yeah under 80c you don’t need to worry about DMS formation.

 

[kh54s10]

Dms is long gone by the time you are cooling your wort. It boils off in the steam. That is why you don't want the lid on during the boil.

 

[couchsending]

Dms is long gone by the time you are cooling your wort. It boils off in the steam. That is why you don't want the lid on during the boil.

Not necessarily

 

[Ninoid]

I always make sure that do not have a lid if the temperature is higher of 79'C and never have problem with DMS.

 

[tneary]

Typically cool to the 170-180 range, add hops, and let sit for 20-30 mins

 

[rodwha]

A bit of an aside, but not really off topic per se, but how does a hopstand/whirlpool work in regards to IBUs? I’ve seen prior that it was said it’s roughly 1/4 the IBUs with all of the flavor, but my calculator figures 10%, which is adjustable but the setting.

 

[Ninoid]

A bit of an aside, but not really off topic per se, but how does a hopstand/whirlpool work in regards to IBUs? I’ve seen prior that it was said it’s roughly 1/4 the IBUs with all of the flavor, but my calculator figures 10%, which is adjustable but the setting.

By my expirence, hopstand IBU after flame out is 1/2 of boil, but hopstand IBU after chilling to 75'C is 1/5 of boil. By me, that's pretty accurate.

 

[rodwha]

By my expirence, hopstand IBU after flame out is 1/2 of boil, but hopstand IBU after chilling to 75'C is 1/5 of boil. By me, that's pretty accurate.

So closer to 20% below about 167* F/75* C

 

[Ninoid]

I wonder how much hopstand affects the bitterness of hops added when boil and whether it affects it at all?
If No Chill affects as 20 minutes boil then the hopstand is likely to change the bitterness of hops added when boil.

 

[rodwha]

I wonder how much hopstand affects the bitterness of hops added when boil and whether it affects it at all?
If No Chill affects as 20 minutes boil then the hopstand is likely to change the bitterness of hops added when boil.

They say a hop stand does add a little bitterness. I’ve seen it said it’s as low as 10% and as high as 25%, and the temperature seems to make an impact on that as well with some people doing it hotter and some doing it cooler.

What I see is that late boil and hop stand additions don’t taste anything like what the IBU number shows. Once I tried a no bittering IPA using equal amounts and 30, 20, 10, and 5 mins, and though it was very hop flavorful it was weird to me as I felt it was missing that bitterness.

Now I use 1/4 to 1/2 ounce of a high AA hop for bittering. If I can get at least 10-12 IBUs from a bittering addition I’m happy.

 

[bleme]

A bit of an aside, but not really off topic per se, but how does a hopstand/whirlpool work in regards to IBUs? I’ve seen prior that it was said it’s roughly 1/4 the IBUs with all of the flavor, but my calculator figures 10%, which is adjustable but the setting.

The Beersmith calculator seems to come pretty close. I've done 2 beers with no hops in the boil at all. I pitched about 8oz at 170-180F and used the Beersmith calculator to figure how long to stand. Both beers fit my expectations.

 

[Ninoid]

This is OK for hop added after flame out.
But I wonder if the bitterness changes if we only have boil hops (60 min, 15 min, 5 min, ...) with or without standing 20 or 30 minutes after flameout?

 

[bleme]

This is OK for hop added after flame out.
But I wonder if the bitterness changes if we only have boil hops (60 min, 15 min, 5 min, ...) with or without standing 20 or 30 minutes after flameout?

My version of Beersmith doesn't handle the mix of hopstand hops with 15/5/flameout additions well, which is one reason why I went with hopstand-only hops. I don't know if they fixed this in Version 3 or not.

 

[day_trippr]

BS3 greatly improved how it handles post-boil hop additions and provides lots of user control over it...

Cheers!

 

[Ninoid]

According to some research and recommendations, No Chill counts as 20 min of boil (60 min boil hop is as 80 min). Do any have estimation how flame out high temperature waiting affects IBU?

 

[ncbrewer]

I wonder how much hopstand affects the bitterness of hops added when boil and whether it affects it at all?
If No Chill affects as 20 minutes boil then the hopstand is likely to change the bitterness of hops added when boil.

This gives lots of information about the bitterness added:
https://alchemyoverlord.wordpress.com/2016/03/06/an-analysis-of-sub-boiling-hop-utilization/

 

[HTH1975]

This gives lots of information about the bitterness added:
https://alchemyoverlord.wordpress.com/2016/03/06/an-analysis-of-sub-boiling-hop-utilization/

Very interesting that there is not as much of a difference as we normally assume with boiling wort versus 70-80C.

 

[pwessinger]

I remain unconvinced temperature matters that much. Certainly dont want to boil them. Brulosophy has tested this twice once fo vs 170 and once fo vs 120. Both were unreliably distinguishable. Hey, what would you expect from me. Makes sense seeing as no matter their start, the hops end up sitting in the beer until completion.

After reading that article I decided to switch my huge NEIPA whirlpool (which I have brewed many times) from 170 to FO. The first time I performed a FO addition, the beer came out INSANELY too bitter. Repeated the same recipe a month later and dropped it to 140 before dumping in the hops and the beer came out perfect. I will be whirlpooling below 150 from here on out, regardless of brulosophy's results .

 

[Ninoid]

This gives lots of information about the bitterness added:
https://alchemyoverlord.wordpress.com/2016/03/06/an-analysis-of-sub-boiling-hop-utilization/

Using this analysis most accurate can be calculated IBU with different temperature stage (strong or weak boil, hopstand).

Update:
By that analysis, hop added at start of boil will during the hopstand add another 25% bitterness of boil on 100'C. However, this is probably only true for a hop that has not been boiled for more than 30 minutes because it fired most of its possible bitterness.

 

[applescrap]

After reading that article I decided to switch my huge NEIPA whirlpool (which I have brewed many times) from 170 to FO. The first time I performed a FO addition, the beer came out INSANELY too bitter. Repeated the same recipe a month later and dropped it to 140 before dumping in the hops and the beer came out perfect. I will be whirlpooling below 150 from here on out, regardless of brulosophy's results .

How long did you let them sit? The brulosophy work is always great food for thought. In this case it makes sense that leaving hops in boiling temp water for extended time would create isomerization and bitterness. Once 6 to 8 oz of hops are added I find it hard to believe any lower temperature nuisance is going to matter that much in the long run. If I was going to make a neipa I would just add them at fo and chill right away. I chill in about ten minutes. The nuances between 140, or 150 or 120 etc...I remain unconvinced matters. Then another 4 to 6 dry hop. It seems likely nuances are diminished in the sheer bulk of it all. Keeping them in for extended time at high temperatures makes sense that more isomerization is likely. To me the idea is to not boil them so fo whirlpool would be out, other than adding them at fo and chilling quickly.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

How long did you let them sit? The brulosophy work is always great food for thought. In this case it makes sense that leaving hops in boiling temp water for extended time would create isomerization and bitterness. Once 6 to 8 oz of hops are added I find it hard to believe any lower temperature nuisance is going to matter that much in the long run. If I was going to make a neipa I would just add them at fo and chill right away. I chill in about ten minutes. The nuances between 140, or 150 or 120 etc...I remain unconvinced matters. Then another 4 to 6 dry hop. It seems likely nuances are diminished in the sheer bulk of it all. Keeping them in for extended time at high temperatures makes sense that more isomerization is likely. To me the idea is to not boil them so fo whirlpool would be out, other than adding them at fo and chilling quickly.

Hops boil off there oils at different temps. Hops used in IPA's like cascade Citra ETC boil off at 160. Theres a name for the particular oil thats slipping me right now. THe the idea is to do a hop stand to below those temps to maximize the hop flavor. Anything over those temp and your boiling away the goodness of the hops....at least that I how read it.

 

[pwessinger]

How long did you let them sit? The brulosophy work is always great food for thought. In this case it makes sense that leaving hops in boiling temp water for extended time would create isomerization and bitterness. Once 6 to 8 oz of hops are added I find it hard to believe any lower temperature nuisance is going to matter that much in the long run. If I was going to make a neipa I would just add them at fo and chill right away. I chill in about ten minutes. The nuances between 140, or 150 or 120 etc...I remain unconvinced matters. Then another 4 to 6 dry hop. It seems likely nuances are diminished in the sheer bulk of it all. Keeping them in for extended time at high temperatures makes sense that more isomerization is likely. To me the idea is to not boil them so fo whirlpool would be out, other than adding them at fo and chilling quickly.

I tossed them at flameout, then chilled to 160 and then turned off the chiller and let it sit for 30min. It took ~10 minutes to chill (counter flow) 12 gallons down from FO to 160, so I think it ended up being closer to a 5min boil addition in terms of isomerization. 5 minutes of isomerization of 10 ounces of hops can do some damage . I think anything less than 160 should be fine, however I will be targeting 140 before I add my whirlpool hops in the future.

 

[applescrap]

I tossed them at flameout, then chilled to 160 and then turned off the chiller and let it sit for 30min. It took ~10 minutes to chill (counter flow) 12 gallons down from FO to 160, so I think it ended up being closer to a 5min boil addition in terms of isomerization. 5 minutes of isomerization of 10 ounces of hops can do some damage . I think anything less than 160 should be fine, however I will be targeting 140 before I add my whirlpool hops in the future.

key points, 10 oz for 5 min boil is a lot. For some reason, I cant get over not even heating them at all for this style.

 

[Ninoid]

I boil my beers only 5 minutes and get lot of bitterness with hopstand. I throw hop immediately after flame out, wait 20 or 30 minutes and calculate bitterness as 50% of boil. My Brown Ale with 60g (cca 2oz) Columbus is pretty bitter, even too much for that style.

 

[pwessinger]

key points, 10 oz for 5 min boil is a lot. For some reason, I cant get over not even heating them at all for this style.

It wasn't actually a 5 minute boil, but it tasted like the hops had the utilization of 5 mins, even though the boil was dead and the chiller was running.

 

[applescrap]

Your fo is my boil. Water boils waaay lower here at 6k elevation. Plus boil or not, imagine sticking your hand in 198 vs 205. I think it would be hard to tell the difference, same for the hops.

 

[Dgallo]

After reading that article I decided to switch my huge NEIPA whirlpool (which I have brewed many times) from 170 to FO. The first time I performed a FO addition, the beer came out INSANELY too bitter. Repeated the same recipe a month later and dropped it to 140 before dumping in the hops and the beer came out perfect. I will be whirlpooling below 150 from here on out, regardless of brulosophy's results .

I’m with you here. My hop stands are at 150 and I hold the temp within 5 degrees for 90 minutes.

I read an article where they conducted a comparable study of total hop oil content in beers and the perceived flavor impact numerous whirlpool and dry hopping schedules. all beers had the same water profile, grain bill, hops, yeast and fermentation temp. Each beer was hopped at a rate of 2 oz per gallon in total hopping. For example. One beer was 40% whirlpool at 160 for 30 minutes and 60% dryhops at 3 days before kegging. The dry hops ranged from 5 day to 1 day before keg. The whirlpools were a little more involved they ranged in temps from 180-130 and from 30-90 minutes.

The combo that had the most oil content was the 70% whirlpool at 170 for 90 minutes 30% at day 5. However the combo that was chosen to have the greatest perceived flavor and was the most preferred from the blind tasting was the 50% whirlpool at 150 for 90 minutes and 50% dryhop 2 days before kegging.

Did anyone else read this study? I can’t seem to find the link.

 

[couchsending]

Hop oils are not the only part of the hop that contributes to aroma and taste. Thiols have a huge impact on hop aroma and flavor as well. Some of those actually increase with boiling times.

All the comments about adding hops just at FO and getting crazy bitterness perplex me or adding at FO and chilling immediately? You’re sure it’s IBU “bitterness”? When everything is correct with water, pH, etc you should only perceive IBUs at the very front of your pallete then it should fade rather quickly. If you’re getting bitterness that lasts or you perceive at the end of each sip that has nothing to do with IBUs.

Finally got some fresh Tree House this week and was enjoying a Doubleganger last night and how bitter it actually was. But again only bitterness at the very front of the palette. It completely fades and leaves you with nothing. Very light and so easy to drink. The opposite of almost every other commercial NEIPA out there.

 

[razzman]

I brewed an IPA today on a BM50. I've recently started following this thread so I thought I would leave my thoughts.
In the past I would typically do a 60 min and 20 min hop addition and a flameout addition with 15 min stand at flameout. Today I did the 60 min and moved the others forward to a hop stand at 77-68c for 60 mins and the remaining hops I will either add after primary or add to the kegs.
I dropped the the wort temp pretty quickly at flameout to 70c with an IC and the BM pumps, when it hit 70c I turned off the pumps and the wort settled at 77c. I added 100g Citra pellets and turned the pumps back on and after 60mins it was at 68c. I walked into the garage halfway through the hop stand and the smell was awesome! I had not experienced that aroma with hot wort before. So, there you go (as they say) I'm looking forward to trying the beer at kegging and deciding wether to add the keg hops. I will report back in 10 days or so.