What makes a good cider?

[snakehipsbrodie]

New to the home brewing game and just finished my first batch of cherry cider, 3l cherry, 2l Spanish apples and cider yeast and lots of sugar! Came out at 9%. Sampled some still with my friends and got mixed reviews, was likened to strongbow cider.
I am wondering what you Brewers would be looking for in a cider? Is my cider actually good to be likened to a highly successful commercial cider, or should we be aiming for a unique taste?
What's your thoughts? Cheers.

 

[CKuhns]

That is a tough one to answer. If you like Strongbow then yes it is good to be likened to it. If not then I guess not.

I would suggest you find and or perfect a recipe you, your family and friends really like. I personally make most of my ciders from store bought apple juice, add frozen concentrate some brown sugar and use S04 Yeast. Ferment it to 1.004 or so. The taste to my pallet is semi sweet to slightly dry. Then I add cinnamon, vanilla and oak for mouth feel and rounding out the flavors. Then Keg and Carb.

Does not taste anything like any commercial ciders I have tried but tastes great to me and pretty much everyone who has tried it likes it. I am happy with it and that is really all that matters.

Welcome to the "addiction " and Happy brewing!

 

[Maylar]

The more I make cider, the less I like commercial ones. If someone told me my cider tastes like Strongbow I don't know if I'd be flattered or insulted. Personally, I think mine's better.

 

[dmtaylor]

Secrets to good cider:

1) Don't add any sugar.

2) Ferment cool and slow.

3) If you like a sweeter cider, then add gelatin and sorbate to knock out most of the yeast as soon as it tastes good. For my taste this occurs right at about 1.010 specific gravity. Then keep it cold.

4) Learn and realize that your homemade cider is in fact both different and much higher quality than 90 percent of commercial ciders, regardless of what 90 percent of tasters are thinking when they drink yours.

 

[MindenMan]

Cider is a very personal thing; if you like yours better than any of the offerings from the store then you have nailed it. Most of the commercial ciders are made as fast as is possible to turn a buck. I personally agree with not adding sugar because I use FAJC instead. FAJC adds more apple flavor I believe as well as adding more fermentable sugar and a bit more mouth feel. I ferment cool and slow with a non-aggressive yeast; my ciders are months old before I ever bottle and then wait another 6 months or so before sampling. I am currently rebuilding my stockpile of applejack, so the bottling of hard cider is on the back burner for now as applejack has got to age a minimum of at least 9 months (IMHO) before it is acceptable for drinking.

 

[Daemon]

I made a Half and Half Black Cherry and Apple Cider that turned out amazing. I fermented it out completely and bottled. When it comes to serving it is almost the color of a red wine, but a bit more purple. For me I like sweet cider. It is insanely dry I tried adding splenda (what I had on hand), real sugar, and honey. None of that sweetened it and left it tasting good. However just mixing it with apple juice was amazing (duh should have started with that). Cherry Apple Goodness.

You just have to remember everyone has their own preference and opinion. Like dmtaylor stops it when it reaches the desired sweetness. I ferment out and back sweeten at serving.

I have friends that like really really dry cider and then there is me who prefers candy.

 

[MindenMan]

Daemon, good point well made. White grape peach (which contains apple juice) either from concentrate (if you can find it) or by the 1/2 gallon jug at wally world makes a great cider and an even better applejack.

 

[Brian77095]

As you can see from the above it is very personal.

Here are some questions you should ask your self.

1. Why are you making cider? For your self? For others? If for your self what do you like? If for others what do they like?

2. Will you be entering competitions? If so you will need to make it to style. This will force you to make specific types and try and bring in certain flavors.

3. Do you have a club or other cider makers near by? They can really help you dial in your beer/cider. I made a cider and thought WOW this thing is DRY! When I let my club sample it they all though it was only semi dry lol.

As far as making your cider taste like a commercial cider that certainly is a good start. On the cider your friends tasted how old is it? Sounds like it could be very young and not in its prime yet. I like all kinds so if it is unique great if it taste like strong bow and I like that great. If it is one of a kind or supposed to be like a commercial brand it should have the following characteristics: very clear, good balance, no over powering flavor (if you add cherries you still want the apple taste) also make sure both fruit go together, no off flavors (one of my ciders had a musty after taste not horrible but there). Also control your carbonation if you wanted it highly carbonated and it is flat...well thats bad. Or if you were going for lightly carbed or no carb and you have a lot....bad again.

Hope that helps!

 

[Sailingeric]

Secrets to good cider:

1) Don't add any sugar.

2) Ferment cool and slow.

3) If you like a sweeter cider, then add gelatin and sorbate to knock out most of the yeast as soon as it tastes good. For my taste this occurs right at about 1.010 specific gravity. Then keep it cold.

4) Learn and realize that your homemade cider is in fact both different and much higher quality than 90 percent of commercial ciders, regardless of what 90 percent of tasters are thinking when they drink yours.

I had great results with using WLP002 English Ale Yeast, it is a low attenuating yeast so the cider still had some sweetness to it without having to back sweeting and adding stuff to kill the yeast.

 

[MarkKF]

What makes a good cider? Good Apple juice! Not from a bottle, not from a can, not even from a plastic jug. You gotta find someone who presses apples you probably never heard of.

 

[dmtaylor]

I had great results with using WLP002 English Ale Yeast, it is a low attenuating yeast so the cider still had some sweetness to it without having to back sweeting and adding stuff to kill the yeast.

I've heard that to be true. I haven't tried WLP002 yet but I did try a Scottish ale yeast a couple years ago and that did the same kind of thing. However, I still have always and apparently forevermore shall love the character of Cote des Blancs yeast far above any other I have tried (and I have tried many).

 

[honeycon]

What makes a good cider? Good Apple juice! Not from a bottle, not from a can, not even from a plastic jug. You gotta find someone who presses apples you probably never heard of.

That if of course very reasonable. Do you have any suggestions for someone who wants to make a 2nd ever batch for this time of year?
I did make 4 gallons with fresh juiced apples last fall and it was pretty darn good. Fall is a long way off and that first batch is way gone.

 

[Maylar]

That if of course very reasonable. Do you have any suggestions for someone who wants to make a 2nd ever batch for this time of year?
I did make 4 gallons with fresh juiced apples last fall and it was pretty darn good. Fall is a long way off and that first batch is way gone.

Any of the store brand ciders will work, and for a second batch it's worth the time to get experience. The biggest concern IMO is keeping the temperature low this time of year. I don't do summer ciders because of that.

 

[Morrey]

I got lots of good advice on this forum, and tried a short cut which cost me in the end. I should have used an ale style yeast so the cider would not have finished so dry, but I used cotes des blanc wine yeast that I had on hand. Cider when it finished was BONE dry!! I then had to use campden and sorbate to inhibit further fermentation when I added FAJC and simple syrup to bring back the depth of flavor and sweetness to a drinkable level.

However, some may like it totally dry like this. My problem was lack of apple flavor when it finished so dry, especially since I used bottled AJ to begin with. Live and learn.

 

[Maylar]

I got lots of good advice on this forum, and tried a short cut which cost me in the end. I should have used an ale style yeast so the cider would not have finished so dry, but I used cotes des blanc wine yeast that I had on hand. Cider when it finished was BONE dry!! I then had to use campden and sorbate to inhibit further fermentation when I added FAJC and simple syrup to bring back the depth of flavor and sweetness to a drinkable level.

However, some may like it totally dry like this. My problem was lack of apple flavor when it finished so dry, especially since I used bottled AJ to begin with. Live and learn.

Therein lies the rub. With less-than-ideal juice, we pick a yeast that leaves some fruity flavors. But if you're fortunate enough to have juice that's specifically blended for hard cider, it's better to use a yeast that's neutral and transparent so the character of the apples comes through.

From what I've read with interviews with master cider makers, most of them use something like EC-1118 fermented at about 50°F. Cool and slow. But if you have "meh" juice and ferment at 70° it's not going to leave anything behind.

 

[honeycon]

Thanks for the response. I will try using my honey bucket heater as a cooler for the cider. Basically an insulated box with a lid. Put in a jug of ice every other day or so. My previous endeavor was made using S-04 , ferment to 1.004, then use apple juice to 1.012 and bottle prime. The cider was then bottle pasteurized. What is a good fermentation temp to shoot for?

 

[MindenMan]

I try to stay at 64-65 degrees and really like 1084 Irish Ale Yeast. It doesn't strip out all the apple-y goodness, nor does it add any funky flavors. You would be amazed at how much different a gallon of store-bought juice can taste by grating/grinding a tart apple into your fermenter. When we don't eat the apples we purchase quickly enough, I put them in the deep freeze until I am ready to make a batch of cider. After being frozen it takes no effort to juice them. The first time I added apple pulp to apple juice the airlock almost got clogged and caused a mess. Many experienced cider makers will talk about keeping an almost zero head space in the fermenter to prevent oxidation I have a different idea; if cider is fermented under pressure the CO2 will prevent any oxidation or vinegar possibilities. I have been doing my ciders this way for about a year and have had no bad batches.

 

[Morrey]

As in many "first" things we do in life, the first cider leaves a lot to be desired. Bottled AJ with a wine yeast at 70F taught me several mistakes which we all identified. The right yeast, the right juice and the right fermentation temp/time all adds up to a better product. Ain't many shortcuts in this game!

 

[Evilgrin]

What commonly available store bought apples would be a good addition to store bought cider. Green apples like a Granny Smith?

 

[dmtaylor]

What commonly available store bought apples would be a good addition to store bought cider. Green apples like a Granny Smith?

Granny is tart but a bit bland in my opinion. But it could give you some of the tartness you want. If you can find Jonathan, that's a better one, some acid and lots of good flavor. McIntosh will add a ton of appley flavor and aroma, so I always use at least a few McIntosh, or even better, Cortland if I can find it. Honeycrisp is very sweet, tasty, and full of juice. Braeburn, Fuji, and Pink Lady are all great choices as well. Pretty much anything other than Red Delicious will help. When in doubt, get whatever's cheap!! Or look for a discounted variety bag, a lot of places sell those, and use whatever they give you other than Red Del.

By the way, I wouldn't chop and add chunks to the juice; I'd buy a juicer and use that, and just use the juice.

Slow fermentation is really the key in my opinion. You can even use a wine yeast in the refrigerator at ~40 F if you want, it just takes 4-5 months to ferment out. I've done this, it works. Better to keep it cool and let it do its thing for many months than to ferment at room temp or hotter for a couple weeks and then have it give you headaches from the hot alcohols produced at the higher temps.

 

[Evilgrin]

I can get most of those at the market. I can also get Winesap later this year at the orchard. One of the orchards has 24 varieties.

I normally get fuji for eating. I don't care for red delicious at all.

My basement is still really cool but not for much longer. I have a batch going on its 3rd week now using Wyeast 4766. Sofar it has been the slowest fermenting cider yeast ive tried and im happy with the sample i tasted.

 

[MindenMan]

I read the Wyeast 4766 info, and although it mentions "big fruit flavor" it also mentions crisp and dry. Does anybody have multiple use experience with this specific yeast, I would like to know what was the F.G, was it really dry, was it crisp in the sense of on the tongue? To me very dry means the flavor is subdued...

 

[Evilgrin]

I will try to get a gravity reading tomorrow. Fermentation appears to have slowed enough now. A bit more than a week ago the sample was not dry with great apple flavor. It reminded me of a apple soda i tried once. Mine started on 4/13 at 1.058ish IIRC. After 5 days it still was not dry but not super sweet either.

 

[ericbw]

I'm surprised no one mentioned tannin. A little bit helps mimic what real cider apples have.

 

[MarkKF]

I'm surprised no one mentioned tannin. A little bit helps mimic what real cider apples have.

I add a couple tsp. tannin to every batch. Along with acid blend.

 

[ericbw]

I've never had to add acid because it's tart enough for my taste. I think cider from regular juice (even fresh orchard-pressed cider) just doesn't make very complex cider. So acid and tannin help with that.

 

[Albionwood]

I'm always mystified by the advice to add tart apples to a cider blend. All of the commonly-available culinary apples ("table fruit") have enough acidity to balance the sugar so they taste good to eat (except, of course, the much-despised modern Red D, whose insipid taste is largely caused by a lack of acid). This is fine for eating and fresh juice, but when you ferment the sugars out, the acidity becomes overwhelming and the cider is too sharp, accentuating the dryness and obscuring the delicate flavors.
That tartness is fine if you backsweeten, so that's what most people using culinary apples do.

 

[dmtaylor]

I'm always mystified by the advice to add tart apples to a cider blend. All of the commonly-available culinary apples ("table fruit") have enough acidity to balance the sugar so they taste good to eat (except, of course, the much-despised modern Red D, whose insipid taste is largely caused by a lack of acid). This is fine for eating and fresh juice, but when you ferment the sugars out, the acidity becomes overwhelming and the cider is too sharp, accentuating the dryness and obscuring the delicate flavors.
That tartness is fine if you backsweeten, so that's what most people using culinary apples do.

^^^ This! Except I don't backsweeten. Instead I cut the fermentation short with racking, gelatin, and temperature. Of course I probably already mentioned that 3 times on this thread but can't be bothered to go check.