what is wrong with this brew?

[drakub]

Hi
I have been brewing all extract with no problems... few months ago I started with all grain brewing and there are some major issues.
1. Bottled beer has no carbonation. I use dme to bottle. I'm not sure if the beer is too high gravity or what the problem might be. I have also been using a stir plate to culture yeast and I don't know if that might be an issue as well.
2. The Fg is way too low... all sweetness is gone in my last two batches. Here is what I did last time....

12 lbs 2 row briess
2 lbs briess carmel 40l
1 lbs amber dme

60 min .5 simcoe
45 min .5 simcoe
30 min 1 centennial
15 min .5 magnum
15 min yeast nutrient
10 min whirlfloc
1 min .5 citrate

Og 1.078
Sg taken after 11 days 1.008

60 min boil
Mash at 153 with 5gl for 12 he's over night
Sparge with 4 gal
Yeast white labs San Diego wlp090 cultured on a stir plate for 18 hrs
Fermentation at about 72 degrees

Your input is greatly appreciated

Jake

 

[Billybrewer09]

Not sure about the carbonation problem, but one reason your beer is finishing to dry could be your fermentation temp is too high.

 

[drakub]

Thanks for your input. There is not much that i can about the temp at least for few more months... what about using yeast that is not as vicious? I also read somewhere that maybe i could add some sugars that do not ferment? I do like the aspect of 9.2 abv but its way too dry for my likening.

 

[KISS Brew]

I use dme to bottle.

Is this how you always bottle? How much DME did you use?

Yeast white labs San Diego wlp090

There's your problem for low FG. This yeast's purpose is high attenuation, and that's exactly what you got.

 

[climateboy]

If you are doing all-grain, you can mash at a higher temperature--155 to 158 degrees F--to produce a less fermentable wort. You are also mashing for way, way too long. If you don't get an infection with a 12 hour mash, you will certainly get a highly fermentable wort. So, your first route is to mash at a higher temperature for a shorter period of time (90 min max).

If you are using extract, then yes, add some unfermentable sugars (such as lactose).

If the best temperature control you can manage is 72 degrees, well, that is on the low side for some of the aggressive Belgian yeasts--check out their temperature ranges, and find one for which 72 degrees would be on the low side. That might help mitigate attenuation.


CB

 

[Billybrewer09]

You could make a swamp cooler to bring your temps down.
A lower attenuating yeast would work as well as adding unfermentable sugars, but i would really look at getting your fermentation temps under control first.
Cooler temps will make a better beer.

 

[RM-MN]

Hi
I have been brewing all extract with no problems... few months ago I started with all grain brewing and there are some major issues.
1. Bottled beer has no carbonation. I use dme to bottle. I'm not sure if the beer is too high gravity or what the problem might be. I have also been using a stir plate to culture yeast and I don't know if that might be an issue as well.
2. The Fg is way too low... all sweetness is gone in my last two batches. Here is what I did last time....

12 lbs 2 row briess
2 lbs briess carmel 40l
1 lbs amber dme

60 min .5 simcoe
45 min .5 simcoe
30 min 1 centennial
15 min .5 magnum
15 min yeast nutrient
10 min whirlfloc
1 min .5 citrate

Og 1.078
Sg taken after 11 days 1.008

60 min boil
Mash at 153 with 5gl for 12 he's over night
Sparge with 4 gal
Yeast white labs San Diego wlp090 cultured on a stir plate for 18 hrs
Fermentation at about 72 degrees

Your input is greatly appreciated

Jake

Do I read that you are starting your mash at 153 but are leaving it in the mash tun overnight? What temp is the mash when you start to lauter? You may simply be allowing the temp to drop and the enzymes don't stop acitng on the sugars leaving you with a more fermentable wort. You probably need to limit the time in the mash tun and do a mashout to stop the enzyme action.

As long as you have some form of fermentable sugar your beer will make CO2 given time and the correct temperature. If you store it too cold it will not carbonate and if your bottle caps don't seal the CO2 will simply escape.

 

[drakub]

I used dme many times for bottling and never had any issues with it. Im not sure if u can only use brand new dme ... the one i used was open and placed in ziplock bag for about 4 weeks...
I put 170 into mash tun which results in about 152... 12 hrs later its at about 146. I know that its not necessary to mash for such a long time but it saves time in the morning when its ready to go rather then starting fresh. I also read that it might actually increase efficiency by doing longer mashes.

I have to look into swamp coolers as i have never seen one before. I will aso stick to whitelabs cal ale yeast as that seemed to work for me in the past.

Thanks for all of ur input...

 

[Billybrewer09]

A swamp cooler is just a big bucket that you put your fermentor in. Fill it about half way with water, wrap a towel around it add a couple frozen water bottles and let it go. You can even blow a fan on it to get it cooler

 

[squeekybobo]

A swamp cooler is just a big bucket that you put your fermentor in. Fill it about half way with water, wrap a towel around it add a couple frozen water bottles and let it go. You can even blow a fan on it to get it cooler

+1 on the swamp cooler. That's what I did with my Current batch, since my last got way too warm for the s-04 I used. I'm able to keep it between 60 - 65 by swapping some frozen bottles of water in every 4-5 hours.

 

[bottlebomber]

You are getting low FG because of the overnight mash, no question. I can mash at 160 and get a dry beer doing this - and I often do. I probably overnight about 50% of my beers. If you want a sweeter beer stick to a 60 or 90 minute mash, and mash in the 154-156 range.

 

[HootHootHoot]

I used dme many times for bottling and never had any issues with it. Im not sure if u can only use brand new dme ... the one i used was open and placed in ziplock bag for about 4 weeks...
I put 170 into mash tun which results in about 152... 12 hrs later its at about 146. I know that its not necessary to mash for such a long time but it saves time in the morning when its ready to go rather then starting fresh. I also read that it might actually increase efficiency by doing longer mashes.

I have to look into swamp coolers as i have never seen one before. I will aso stick to whitelabs cal ale yeast as that seemed to work for me in the past.

Thanks for all of ur input...

Funny, you ask for advice, and then when several people point out your problems you say you're going to continue...

1. Mash time
If you're worried about efficiency, many of us get 75-85% doing 60-90 minute mash. With a 12 hour mash you're maybe gaining 5%? Is that worth it? This s why you are having so much fermentable sugar. Not to mention, mashing at 155 vs 152 will give you Less fermentable wort and more body to the beer (less dry)? This with your yeast is the exact reasons you are getting too low fg and dry beer.

2. Your yeast. You complain because your yeast is too aggressive and that your fg is too low? Ok, well what is responsible for turning your sugars into alcohol? Yeast. Change your yeast, mash and keep everything the same and I guarantee that you have better fg

3. Fermenting temperature. If you don't have a basement or an extra fridge, you need a swamp cooler. If your temperature gauge on your carboy reads 72, then you can bet your beer is at 76-77 degrees. Way too warm, and will give you off flavors (dryness being possible). But I doubt this is the #1 reason why your beer isn't turning out

4. Your ABV. 9.2 ABV will be dry, especially when you basically only used base malts. If you want a dry beer, take 2 row or DME and mix with with hops and yeast, and the you go. If you want a beer with more complex flavors, more fullness in the body, then you need to have more accenting grains.

If you want a quick fix, stop your ridiculously long mashing times and change your yeast. If that doesn't work, then I would say your recipe screams too much base malt

 

[drakub]

Ok... thanks again for all of your input... here is my next ipa stuff that i have already bought - what would you suggest for specialty grain that i could add to this as it only has base malts right now. I will also try a swamp cooler as my basement is at about 72 right now and due to the size of it air conditioning is kind of out of a question.

I am going to mash it for 60-90 min with 170 F but from my experience that drops to about 154.
5 GAL BOIL

14 lbs 2-row Pale
2 lbs Caramel 40L
boil 60 mins 1.0 Simcoe
boil 30 mins 0.5 Falconer's Flight
boil 15 mins 0.5 Falconer's Flight
boil 15 mins 0.5 Simcoe
10 min 1 ea Whirlfloc Tablet
5 min 1 ea Yeast Nutrient
dry hop 7 days 0.5 Falconer's Flight
dry hop 7 days 0.5 Simcoe
Safale S-04 Dry Yeast
OG 1.086
FG 1.021
74.6 IBU
12° SRM
8.7% ABV

 

[Billybrewer09]

I would leave the grains the way they are.
I would move the 30 min addition up to around 15 min or less.
Mash around 150 and i think you will have a pretty solid recipe.

 

[drakub]

thanks for your input... have you experience with specialty grains in IPA's? What would be the common one to use maybe in a next brew?

 

[KISS Brew]

I am going to mash it for 60-90 min with 170 F but from my experience that drops to about 154.

Just to clarify - when people say "mash at 154", they mean "add grains to water heated past 154", with the goal of the temperature hitting 154 once grains are added. This higher temperature varies for everyone, but 170F seems about right.

So in your process, you would be mashing at 154, but your "strike water" would be 170F.

 

[drakub]

Yes it is... I bring the water to 170 before pouring it into my mash tun... Once the grains are added it brings the temp down to about 154 +/- few degrees. I read that you don't want anything over 170...

 

[Billybrewer09]

I'm not really sure what specialty grains your talking about.
Most of my IPA'S grain bill looks similar to yours. Sometimes ill add a couple pounds of vienna malt and a few ounces of honey malt depending on the hops I'm using.
I also mash them at 149-151 for an hour.

 

[HootHootHoot]

It all depends what you're looking for: color, body, head? For an IPA you aren't too bad for your grains

I usually put some Vienna in as well. Carafoam is good for head retention. Aromatic malt is a personal favorite of mine, I can't get enough of the smell of fresh crushed aromatic. But that's more for dubbels. I put 0.5 lbs of aromatic in my ipa, got rave reviews from my friends, it was their favorite. That's more for color and smell. I would only use it as about 8% or less of your total grain bill if you decide to use it.

Honey malt is great, but less that 3% of grain bill I think is the typical recommendation

You've got some good 20L in there, which will give it some good characteristics! But I have no idea if it will be enough. In an IPA you're looking at 85-90% of your grain bill to be some kind of 2-row like malt, which looks about right without plugging your recipe into beer smith. I just worry about the high ABV drying your beer out... But it's a good learning experience as high gravity beers will be dryer as you play with your malt selection to perfect it.

Just control your mash temps/time and I think you'll do ok with this one. If it gets above 9% I think you'll have a dry beer again

 

[bottlebomber]

It all depends what you're looking for: color, body, head? For an IPA you aren't too bad for your grains

I usually put some Vienna in as well. Carafoam is good for head retention. Aromatic malt is a personal favorite of mine, I can't get enough of the smell of fresh crushed aromatic. But that's more for dubbels. I put 0.5 lbs of aromatic in my ipa, got rave reviews from my friends, it was their favorite. That's more for color and smell. I would only use it as about 8% or less of your total grain bill if you decide to use it.

Honey malt is great, but less that 3% of grain bill I think is the typical recommendation

You've got some good 20L in there, which will give it some good characteristics! But I have no idea if it will be enough. In an IPA you're looking at 85-90% of your grain bill to be some kind of 2-row like malt, which looks about right without plugging your recipe into beer smith. I just worry about the high ABV drying your beer out... But it's a good learning experience as high gravity beers will be dryer as you play with your malt selection to perfect it.

Just control your mash temps/time and I think you'll do ok with this one. If it gets above 9% I think you'll have a dry beer again

I am really trying to find something here I agree with...

OP.. Higher gravity beers are not drier. Unless a large percent of the fermentables comes from simple sugar, which can usually be assumed to be 100% fermentable and will not contribute to FG. Malt- derived sugars will always contain some unfermentables. That means that the greater the OG, the greater the FG. Especially when using a lot of crystal malts which have lots of long chain sugars, as you have here.

 

[HootHootHoot]

I am really trying to find something here I agree with...

OP.. Higher gravity beers are not drier. Unless a large percent of the fermentables comes from simple sugar, which can usually be assumed to be 100% fermentable and will not contribute to FG. Malt- derived sugars will always contain some unfermentables. That means that the greater the OG, the greater the FG. Especially when using a lot of crystal malts which have lots of long chain sugars, as you have here.

That's been my experience, but at the same time, my buddy's beer is the only one I have tried, and he uses candied sugar.

 

[bottlebomber]

That's been my experience, but at the same time, my buddy's beer is the only one I have tried, and he uses candied sugar.

That basically goes along with what I was saying. I have an IPA that is very dry at 16% ABV. However over half of this came from dextrose, and I had a successive sugar feeding program I used that encouraged the yeast to keep eating until the gravity dropped down to 1.00. That's not really a typical scenario though. Usually, as in RIS, Barleywine, or other big styles that don't use sugar, the FG is high, sometimes 1.030 and above.