What is happening during the mash and developing a better process

[stz]

Hello.
Obviously want to get the 'optimal' pH range during the mash, but 5.2-5.5 seems pretty broad, where within this is 'optimal' and why? Can somebody point me in the right direction? I know why optimal is best, but wonder what happens at the extremes?

I estimate pH at 5.5 or so for the pale beers based on the water here, but the salt additions give a potential drop of 0.3-0.4. Testing 5 minutes into the mash reads 5.5, 10 minutes in 5.47. 15 minutes in 5.43. Clearly as the salts dissolve and start to react with the alkalinity the pH begins to drop and while I would not assume that in the real world my potential drop of 0.3-0.4 can be achieved because of all of the variables I imagine the pH drop will increase in speed as the temporary hardness of the water reacts and the buffering capacity of the mash water is exhausted. My question here is I want to use lactic additions to reduce residual alkalinity left as permanent hardness, but I don't want to shoot the pH too low because the point where the buffering craps out feels like guess work. What would people do here? Test? Can always reduce the salts as they are on the high side. I guessing test at the end of the mash to see where I ended up with the salts and start with small acid additions based on that and continue to test. I'm just concerned that the theoretical reduction via salts takes me too low, acid additions might get me even further. Could do with losing 50ppm RA as CaCO3 tbh.

 

[TheHopfather]

There is a lot of info to digest in regards to mash pH. I would start with Brau Kaiser, he's got an in-depth section on pH on his website which should cover all of your questions.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=How_pH_affects_brewing

 

[stz]

Today was a similar story. Grist make up and ratio estimates a pH of 5.5 in the mash with a maximum potential shift from salts -0.33. 10 minutes in and the mash measures 5.64. Lactic is now on order.

 

[ajdelange]

If you are seeing predicted drops in pH of 0.3 to 0.4 in magnitude you are either using way to much salts or a bad prediction program.

 

[stz]

If you see are seeing predicted drops in pH of 0.3 to 0.4 in magnitude you are either using way to much salts or a bad prediction program.

Could you help me by expanding upon that? I'm using the braukaiser water calculator spreadsheet. Yes too much salts is a possibly as they are often in the region of 2g per litre all in the mash. Usually when working with over a gram I would drop 2/3rd in the mash and 1/3rd in the sparge.

 

[ajdelange]

Kai knows what he is talking about so in this case it's too much salt. A quarter gram per liter is about as high as I would want to go but personal tastes may demand more. Salts are for flavor, not pH control. Use acid/base for that.

 

[doug293cz]

Could you help me by expanding upon that? I'm using the braukaiser water calculator spreadsheet. Yes too much salts is a possibly as they are often in the region of 2g per litre all in the mash. Usually when working with over a gram I would drop 2/3rd in the mash and 1/3rd in the sparge.

I start with pretty low mineral water (10 ppm Ca, 1 ppm Mg, 26 ppm bicarb), and only use 3 - 5 grams of any one salt (less than 10 g total) for ~30 liters of strike water, so only 0.1 - 0.17 g/L. Your salt additions appear to be excessive.

Brew on

 

[stz]

Ok I get where people are coming from, but the salt additions have been calculated by a 3rd party company who perform recipe optimisation. The beer is covered with awards so I can't go attacking it too much without good reason. I believe the potential pH shifts and intimidatingly large volumes are simply because all the salts go into the mash. After the sparge we find ..

Ca ideal range / total 50-150 / 214.1
So4 ideal range / total 0-350 / 322.8
Cl ideal range / total 0-250 / 136.1
CaCO3 89.8
RA as CaCO3 during mash -313.11

The RA during the mash is the calculated potential drop which isn't occurring in the real world. The CaCO3 remaining after the wort collection is why we are looking at acid additions because these still high based on style. The pH isn't shifting as expected based on calculators when doing actual tests during the mash. When adjusted for actual volume in the fermenter we are using 0.68g/L at most for very big pale and hoppy styles.

The RA wants reducing because we get hard, dry and slightly salty lingering bittering in certain beers which should just be a bit better than they are.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Kai knows what he is talking about so in this case it's too much salt. A quarter gram per liter is about as high as I would want to go but personal tastes may demand more. Salts are for flavor, not pH control. Use acid/base for that.

My perception here may be all wet on multiple planes, but I perceive that there may be undue influence upon the OP from the pre "Water" John Palmer here. I get the perception that pre the "Water" book (which IMHO elevates John Palmer to a plane of understanding that is closer to AJ DeLange's (your) excellent understanding, albeit with John still seeing the light only as it hazily emerges through a distant tunnel). Until only quite recently, Palmer was all about requisite ridiculous alkalinity levels for dark brews, crazy nomographs contrived to verify the same, and achieving mash pH control primarily through massive infusions of minerals.

 

[ajdelange]

Ok I get where people are coming from, but the salt additions have been calculated by a 3rd party company who perform recipe optimisation.

One cannot talk optimization with out specifying the optimality criterion.

The beer is covered with awards so I can't go attacking it too much without good reason.

One obvious optimality criterion is best sales but that doesn't mean the beer will necessarily taste good. Today we have this macho culture that seems to want to be able to say 'I can tolerate more hops than you can' and beers for this market are thus are brewed with crazy (all this is IMO, of course) levels of sulfate - above what WHO recommends for potable water. You can't expect such a beer to taste very good but de gustibus and all that.

I believe the potential pH shifts and intimidatingly large volumes are simply because all the salts go into the mash.

Could well be the case. Try divvying them up. If you lower the Ca++ to half what it was the size of the pH drop should halve as well.

Ca ideal range / total 50-150 / 214.1
So4 ideal range / total 0-350 / 322.8
Cl ideal range / total 0-250 / 136.1
CaCO3 89.8
RA as CaCO3 during mash -313.11

The RA during the mash is the calculated potential drop which isn't occurring in the real world.

RA really doesn't mean much in the mash. The only reason you see it mentioned these days is because John Palmer was, and still is to some extent, convinced that RA control is the path to good beer. I have to take some responsibility for putting that bee into his bonnet many years ago.

The RA wants reducing because we get hard, dry and slightly salty lingering bittering in certain beers which should just be a bit better than they are.

Reducing RA means adding more calcium or acid to remove bicarbonate. As you already have so much calcium and the beer pH is already too low (?) from that neither move strikes me as a good idea.

 

[stz]

Thanks for the replies from everybody. My thoughts on the RA being a factor in a hard bittering come entirely from comments and suggestions in Water by Colin Kaminski and John Palmer. I have little concrete data to compare against except my experiences with other beer. While I don't have the complete story (water treatment, exact process etc) from other breweries I've enough shop talk, recipe and process to start to expect more from some of our beers, especially when I find similar recipes from others which lack this common factor which I've been trying to troubleshoot. I confess to maybe seizing upon a boogyman after reading an almost exact description of the flaw I perceive, but there is one way to find out.

The pH of the mash isn't actually getting too low from actual tests. The predicted drop from mineral additions are entirely predicted and it has been interesting to find out finally what is happening under the hood using a meter, but the test results suggest we should still make acid additions to bring the mash pH into the optimal range which is pretty much why I started my dear diary/rambling original post. The mineral additions and how they affect the concentration of H+ ions in solution have proved impossible to estimate and I'd rather proceed with measurement and a conservative process. I just wondered if somebody else had encountered this and if once the buffering capacity of the water was exhausted if I should be prepared for the pH to suddenly drop off a cliff. Score another one for the 'get a pH meter' crowd.

In my OP I said I already believe the salts should/could be scaled back, but if we get pH in the mash right first, the concentration of minerals going into the recipe can then be looked at. I will most likely produce a matrix of different concentrations and get a panel to taste test, nothing like some subjectivity to encourage a good argument.

When I say 'optimised' there is a supply company here which makes water treatment products. They will allow you to send in a sample of water once a year for free and they will produce a report breaking down styles and suggesting additions for various ranges within industry guidelines with some notes for tweaking to taste and preference.

Personally the additions we are currently using look like somebody saw the high figures, decided they wanted to go a little higher still to stand out and then the water supply has drifted maybe another 10-15% from that again since it was last done which was 6 years ago.

Yes we've got a too much calcium. It is only 40-50ppm out of the tap. I like to imagine a little precipitates out during the boil in order to help me sleep at night.

 

[ajdelange]

... if we get pH in the mash right first, the concentration of minerals going into the recipe can then be looked at.

Spot on!