What is going on with my yeast?

[kinjiru]

Hi guys,

I'm having some problems with the quality of the beer. After making 2 different Wheat beers, there is a flavour who overtakes all other flavours and it is common in both.

The first one I thought it could due the water quality. My tap water doesn't have the best flavour so, on the second try, I used bottled water. Unfortunately, the problem persists.

After some reading, I guessed it could be due to the yeast aging, so I waited a while longer and after 3 months, did some tasting. It's a little better, but it still has an huge presence.

I have a new theory: could this be due to some error I do while bottling? After a couple of weeks on the secondary fermenter (at controlled temperature), I add the dissolved sugar, mix it and wait about 20 min before bottling (for the yeast cake to settle a bit on the fermenter). Can this flavour be related to the deposit yeast cake that raises again after a stir for the sugar mixing? All my bottles have a little deposit.

Yeast used: Safbrew Wb-06

I was crazy enough to taste the deposit of a bottle and I guarantee that the flavour on the beer is due to the yeast, so what am I doing wrong?

Thanks for the help.

Rui

 

[kinjiru]

Note:

The first beer was a Wheat style but the second was a Wit, so both should have tasted different.

 

[flars]

You should be racking your beer from the fermentor to a bottling bucket. The beer would be bulk primed in the bottling bucket. The bottling wand would be attached to the bottling buckets spigot with a 2 inch piece of the siphon tubing.

You are most likely tasting the bitterness and grassy flavor of the old hop debris.

An auto siphon will also make the racking process very smooth.

 

[GCPHomebrew]

What are your ferm temps. Do you have a swamp cooler or a freezer? If not then I bet your tasting that. A cool basement is not enough to keep ferm temps below 70.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[kinjiru]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the reply's.

#GCPHomebrew
I have a freezer with a STC-1000 setup. All the temp's are in range of the yeast instructions. Normally, I tend to go for the lower range values. The probe is fixed to the fermenter. The other side of the probe has a layer of an isolation material so it can only read the temperature of the fermenter.

#flars
I will transfer the beer to a third bucket in order to avoid the sediments. I didn't understand to next part. Could you be more specific?

The fermenter bucket has a siphon who is located above the base to avoid the yeast cake. I also use a bottle wand who attaches to the siphon. It really helps the job.

 

[flars]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the reply's.

#GCPHomebrew
I have a freezer with a STC-1000 setup. All the temp's are in range of the yeast instructions. Normally, I tend to go for the lower range values. The probe is fixed to the fermenter. The other side of the probe has a layer of an isolation material so it can only read the temperature of the fermenter.

#flars
I will transfer the beer to a third bucket in order to avoid the sediments. I didn't understand to next part. Could you be more specific?

The fermenter bucket has a siphon who is located above the base to avoid the yeast cake. I also use a bottle wand who attaches to the siphon. It really helps the job.

I don't think aging yeast is any part of your problem.
Do you pour the yeast that is in your bottles into the glass? Some yeasts, even though they make a good beer, do not taste good.
How long do you bottle condition?

I need some more information about your brewing equipment.

Do you ferment in a bucket or something like pressure barrel?
Do you have a second bucket, with a spigot, that you bottle from?
Do you use a glass carboy? If you use a glass carboy, how many gallons is it? 5 gallons or 6.5 gallons or larger?

This is the type of brew set up I use.
Ferment in a carboy, temperature controlled. Active fermentation is done in about a week. After active fermentation is done the yeast begin cleaning up off flavors. No secondary.

Check specific gravity about day 12 and 15.

About day 21 rack to bottling bucket with spigot. Beer is nice and clear by day 21. Attach bottling wand to bucket spigot and fill bottles.

Bottle condition, at warm temperature, for two to three weeks. (High OG beers longer.)
Chill five days and enjoy.

 

[kinjiru]

Hi Flars,

Bellow are my answers

"Do you pour the yeast that is in your bottles into the glass?"
No, I leave about one finger of beer in the bottle.

"Do you ferment in a bucket or something like pressure barrel?
Do you have a second bucket, with a spigot, that you bottle from?
Do you use a glass carboy? If you use a glass carboy, how many gallons is it? 5 gallons or 6.5 gallons or larger?"

I have three of these with spigot. (30L -> 6.5 gallons)

Fermentation for experiment 1:
Primary - 6 days at 68F
Secondary - 10 days at 64F
Bottling - 2 weeks at 64F and then room temperature.

OG. 1040
FG. 1010

I bottle directly from the second fermenter and this is what I think I am doing wrong. I should have racket to another bucket to avoid the sediment of the second fermentation, because when I mix the mixture (sugar and water) with the beer, there will be some sediment that will rise again. Wont this affect the flavour?

Thanks in advance.

Regards,

Rui

 

[cjgenever]

DON'T pull it off the cake so soon. The flavors may very well be all the crap your not letting the yeast clean up. Just leave the beer in the primary. Rack to your bottling bucket when it is time.

'secondaries' are for dry hopping , bulk aging, long ferments (over a month).

 

[flars]

I think your only problem is that you are not letting the fermentation finish in the primary. The very active part of the fermentation may finish in 6 days, but there is a lot happening after the active fermentation to finish the beer.

Secondary fermentor has been a long time misnomer. No fermentation should be expected in a secondary vessel. Fermentation, and all it involves, ends when the beer is removed from the yeast cake. A secondary is used for additions like oak cubes or dry hopping. Although many are skipping the secondary for dry hopping and doing the dry hop in the primary.

Leave your beer to finish and clear in the primary. Rack directly to the bottling bucket after three to four or five or six weeks, depends upon how busy you are, and then bottle.

Using a bottling wand attached to a siphon at the least needs two persons. It is not possible for one person to bottle with a wand and hold the siphon out of the debris at the bottom of the vessel.

 

[kinjiru]

Hi all,

Thank you for your valuable inputs. Always learning something

I will definitely try this process on my next adventure and will update you guys on the result.

Cheers,

Rui

 

[flars]

Let us know how your next brew goes.
Important things to watch:
Fermentation time.
Optimum fermentation temperature for the yeast used. Some nuances here with yeasts like WY1056 or US-05,. and others. Depends upon what flavors you are intending to produce.
Bottle conditioning time in respect to OG.

 

[kinjiru]

Hello guys,

This batch went wonderfully! The yeast aroma was gone and the right flavour was there!

Thanks a lot for helping me out

Now I can focus on how to improve the beers body

Cheers,

Rui

 

[kinjiru]

Just one question:

The final gravity was a little bellow of what I wanted and I believe it affected the beer body (correct?). Next time I ferment a batch, should I stop when the FG reaches my goal or should I wait until it stabilizes for some days?

 

[flars]

A well attenuated fermentation, low FG, will result in a drier beer with less mouth feel, FG 1.008 vs. 1.012.
You can not stop a fermentation when it reaches a target SG, especially if you bottle. The fermentation will restart in the bottle using the priming sugar, resulting in over carbonation and possibly exploding bottles.
An easy way to produce a dry, thin beer is to add sugar to the wort. Sugar is 100% fermentable. Adding body to a beer can be accomplished by adding unfermentable sugars, like lactose. This will add body, but also residual sweetness, like in a sweet stout. The same can be accomplished by steeping grains with unfermentable sugars, without greatly increasing residual sweetness.
It pretty much comes down to balancing the recipe for the desired outcome.

 

[kinjiru]

Well, mine had 1.004 FG. Never had such a low result, but it was my first decent fermentation. Thank You for the tips

 

[Sepanik1986]

I agree with the no secondary. I just did an all citra pale and it was primary 2 weeks, added dry hops for 5 days, pulled dry hops out, let cold crash 3 days, transferred to bottle bucket with priming sugar and bottled from there.

 

[kinjiru]

yeah and it reduces the mess in the apartment

 

[kinjiru]

Hello all,

Well, the frustration escalating quickly. A few weeks after bottling, the aroma and that weird taste came up again...

This time I tried a Belgian Ale recipe with a Brewferm yeast and a also a new member, a Chill Plate cooler. After almost one month on the primary bucket, it was time to bottle. Tasted before adding sugar and it had a nice amount of hop, an excellent aroma and the alcohol was very progressive for a 7.5% ABV. 4 days after bottling I tasted the beer again and for my surprise, the aroma was gone as well as the hop flavour...it was replaced with that weird taste...

Unfortunately in Portugal there aren't home brewers groups where we can debate these problems so, its basically trial and error.

At this point, I can only conclude that the problem is oxidation. Bellow is the process:

1 - Pass the beer to another bucket without the yeast cake. Normally loose 1L. This is trough a hose that settles at the bottom of the new bucket with a lid partially closed at the top. After the passing, I let the beer settle for 15 min with the lid closed.

2 - Add 0,3L of hot water with the desired amount of sugar for the carburation. Mix it with a sterilized spoon and let it settle for another 15 min with the lid closed.

3 - Start bottling the same way as this guy does:

This time I even had the caps lesser than 20 second per bottle.

So, what am I doing wrong?? This is getting very, very frustrating. Spending an huge amount of time and money for nothing...I don't expect a Duvel quality look a like, but not that crappy as I'm making.

Thanks for the help.

Regards,

Rui

 

[kinjiru]

The bottles are conditioned at 18ºC.

 

[flars]

18°C is low for bottle conditioning 21° to 23° would be better, but I don't think this is part of the taste issue.
When you stir in the priming sugar, is your stirring very gentle so no vortex is created? To vigorous of a stir could be introducing air into the beer and oxidation is showing up later in the bottles.
Could it be the bottles? How do you clean your bottles and what is the sanitizer and sanitizing method used for the bottles?

Try bottling some of your brewing water, in bottles sanitized with the same method as for the beer. Taste the water after a couple of weeks in the bottle.

 

[eadavis80]

Yeah, could be something with your bottles. Are they CLEAN AND SANITIZED prior to bottling? Also, I add my priming sugar differently than you do. I boil the sugar with water for 10 minutes and let that sugar solution COOL TO room temp. THEN, I add the beer on top of that priming sugar solution so it mixes in as the beer is added. After my beer is racked into the bottling bucket, I then take my racking cane from my fermenter to the bottling bucket itself and GENTLY stir up that beer/priming sugar solution a bit to help ensure it's evenly distributed throughout.

 

[kinjiru]

Hello guys,

For cleaning the bottles, I use Chemipro Oxi. Put hot water on a big pot, add the Oxi and then submerge 4 bottles each time. Let them fill, wait 2 min and then empty. I don't rinse on tap water since this product does not require it.

After I drink the beer, I rinse the bottles with tap water to avoid yeast sedimentation and put them on a dishwasher. After this, they are stored on plastic closed boxes. On the bottling day, I use the step above.

@flars,
Well, to tell you the truth, I don't remember precisely how the stirring is made, but the vortex can surely happen.

I will also try to bottle some with tap water.

@eadavis80,
Your technique sure looks better to avoid oxidation.


Well, looks like I have to make another experiment, but can it really be oxidation?

 

[MyCarHasAbs]

Could be a number of things. Fermentation temperature can effect the overall taste quite a bit. Also it sounds like you did what I did one time...poured the priming sugar mix right in the bottling bucket and then stirred everything together. That will def pick up some 'unwanted' yeast but it's not a bad thing nor is it uncommon to have a small thin layer at the bottom of each bottle.

Priming sugar goes in the bottling bucket first. Then you slowly siphon it in .....slowly. Then gently stir for a few minutes to evenly distribute the priming sugar. Then bottle.

 

[hautlle]

Hello guys,

For cleaning the bottles, I use Chemipro Oxi. Put hot water on a big pot, add the Oxi and then submerge 4 bottles each time. Let them fill, wait 2 min and then empty. I don't rinse on tap water since this product does not require it.

After I drink the beer, I rinse the bottles with tap water to avoid yeast sedimentation and put them on a dishwasher. After this, they are stored on plastic closed boxes. On the bottling day, I use the step above.

@flars,
Well, to tell you the truth, I don't remember precisely how the stirring is made, but the vortex can surely happen.

I will also try to bottle some with tap water.

@eadavis80,
Your technique sure looks better to avoid oxidation.


Well, looks like I have to make another experiment, but can it really be oxidation?

It appears ChemiPro is a cleaner and not a sanitizer. Are you using StarSan or Iodaphor or bleach to sanitize the bottles?

You don't describe the off-flavor, so that makes it pretty hard to pinpoint what it could be.

What does it taste like? Medicinal, band-aid, cardboard?

 

[kinjiru]

Hello guys,

First of all, Happy New Year

Sorry for the late reply but I was gathering a bunch of friends to test the off flavours and we came to the conclusion that the taste looks like cardboard - Oxidation.

Regarding the cleaning, I was not using anything beside the ChemiPro Oxi. I was told that no other cleaning agent was needed, but looks like I'll have to use bleach also, before the ChemiPro?

Well, in resume, I'll have to use the following methods:

- Sanitize the bottles with bleach;
- Mixing the sugar for carbonation, let the water mix cool down to room temperature and add it to the bottom of the bottling bucket before adding the beer;
- After adding the beer, stir very slowly without creating any vortex.

Any more advices?

Thanks in advance.

Cheers,

Rui

 

[phyllobeddo]

I wouldn't bother with bleach for sanitation. Get some Star-San, a no rinse sanitizer. I haven't read the whole thread, so sorry if this has already been mentioned.

 

[kinjiru]

I wouldn't bother with bleach for sanitation. Get some Star-San, a no rinse sanitizer. I haven't read the whole thread, so sorry if this has already been mentioned.

Hi,

I will have to check with my local shop to see if they have Star-san. Thank you.

 

[eadavis80]

I can't fathom a local home brew shop would not carry Star San. That would be like a supermarket not selling apples.