What is "Alt" beer

[Miraculix]

If you take a look at the old brewing records of Zum Uerige:
http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2014/11/lets-brew-wednesday-zum-uerige-alt.html
I fail to see how they can reach the required "copper color", even with decoction, without Sinamar which is derived from malt so it can be legal. To get that color would require copious amounts of Caramunich, which would render it sweet and roasted malts.. Thoughts?

I don't get what you're asking. The whole grist is described in the article.

 

[Broothru]

. I see it now. I had an alt bier entered in a competition this year which won 1st in category, but I think there were only 2 other alts entered (open competition, all categories of BJCP were included).

It was a “nice” beer, but the recipe needs some further improvement. I used to travel quite frequently to Germany and have enjoyed many altbiers in Düsseldorf, but mine was, I believe, more like a “nice American Amber Ale”, which to me lacks the true authenticity of Alt. This thread and especially your post will help me perfect it. Vielen Dank!

 

[Spartan1979]

If you take a look at the old brewing records of Zum Uerige:
http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2014/11/lets-brew-wednesday-zum-uerige-alt.html
I fail to see how they can reach the required "copper color", even with decoction, without Sinamar which is derived from malt so it can be legal. To get that color would require copious amounts of Caramunich, which would render it sweet and roasted malts.. Thoughts?

The article says they Röstmalz which is roasted malt. That's mostly where the color comes from. How do you "fail to see how"?

 

[ba-brewer]

The article says they Röstmalz which is roasted malt. That's mostly where the color comes from. How do you "fail to see how"?

When entered into beersmith the percentages from the article even with the roast malt set to the darkest level mentioned yields a deep gold or light amber beer.

 

[AmarikinBrew]

When entered into beersmith the percentages from the article even with the roast malt set to the darkest level mentioned yields a deep gold or light amber beer.

Yes. Correctness, Sir!

 

[dmtaylor]

Maybe they boil a gallon on the side to caramelize it, like homebrewers used to do for Scotch ale.

 

[wepeeler]

Roast and chocolate are no no's in the BJCP guidelines. The first one I ever had about 20 years ago was actually an American take on an Altbier. So I really didn't have anything to go by when I started brewing. I emailed that brewery my recipe and they got back to me saying I was reasonably close with my recipe. BUT, I never even looked into the traditional style until maybe 6 months ago. Didn't realize I was chasing something way off.

The guy I brew with loves roast, so this recipe was a slight reflection of his influence. From my scoresheets posted above, judged by a master cicerone, the roast put the beer out of style. But he also said he'd gladly have another pint. So, I didn't brew a traditional Altbier, but I've modified this recipe to get closer to the style. I detect zero roast as of now I'll keg next week!

It's good! Don't know what to say. I'm sure it's not a traditional German Altbier, but I'm happy I have 5 gallons of it!

Slight roast, malty, but attenuated. Cant wait for it to clear in the keg!

 

[Northern_Brewer]

In Designing Great Beers (p130), Ray Daniels quotes the analyses of Anton Piendl in 500 Bier Aus Aller Welt. They average 1.047 OG, 80% attenuation and 34 EBC colour but the group of Dusselforf alts (excluding Uerig) are just under 30 IBU (BU:GU 62%), whereas Uerig is 48 IBU (BU:GU 102%). Uerig is also a touch paler (33 EBC) and a touch lower attenuation (78%) than the Dussedorf average.

But there's a group of alts (including some from Munster) that are rather different from the Dusseldorf ones, which can go as low as 12 IBU (and eg Pinkus is 18 IBU representing the Munster tradition).

Another datapoint from Germany - a 1980 article in Brauwelt on Altbier and Kölschbier (sic) by Dr. Karl-Ullrich Heyse :

https://dafteejit.com/2025/08/1980s-altbier-and-kolsch/
Altbier was described with an original gravity of 11.2-12% [Plato, ie SG 1.045-48], a colour between 25 and 38 EBC, a pH of 4.15 and 4.4 and a bitterness of 28 to 40 “EBC units” (which I assume are equivalent to IBU). The grist was described as “arbitrary”, while a common suggestion of grist composition was also provided: 70% Vienna malt, 20% Munich malt, and 10% wheat malt for rounding off the flavour. An optional 1% or less of roasted malt (from barley or wheat) could also be used for colour correction. The common mashing methods were ranging from infusion mashing to double decoction mashing. Hops were given in 3 to 5 additions, usually high-quality aroma hops.

Fermentation and maturation are described in greater detail: top-fermenting yeast is pitched at a rate of 0.5 l/hl wort [100ml in 20l, 95ml in 5 US gallons] and a temperature of 12°C. The maximum fermentation temperature should be 16°C. When fermented in tanks, fermentation is done under pressure of 0.5 to 0.8 bar. Under these conditions, the yeast can be pitched at 18-20°C and that temperature can be held until fermentation is finished. After chilling the green beer to 14-16°C, some of the yeast is taken off. Reduction of diacetyl should take 2 to 4 days. Only then the beer is cooled down to 0°C. Under more conventional conditions, maturation can also happen at cellar temperatures of 4-5°C.

I can't speak for Germany but I would note that 1980 was pretty much the nadir of British commercial brewing, and I wouldn't necessarily view commercial practices at that time as ones I would want to replicate now at homebrew level, but it's an authoritative datapoint for how things were done in the real world back then.

 

[bwible]

https://dafteejit.com/2025/08/1980s-altbier-and-kolsch/
Altbier was described with an original gravity of 11.2-12% [Plato, ie SG 1.045-48], a colour between 25 and 38 EBC, a pH of 4.15 and 4.4 and a bitterness of 28 to 40 “EBC units”

How would they get the ph that low? Doesn’t that seem way out from what we’re doing with other beers, 5.2 to 5.4? And its logarithmic - how much acid must that take? Or am I missing something? Like does yeast somehow lower ph, and this is a measure of finished ph, not adjusted ph?

 

[dmtaylor]

How would they get the ph that low? Doesn’t that seem way out from what we’re doing with other beers, 5.2 to 5.4? And its logarithmic - how much acid must that take? Or am I missing something? Like does yeast somehow lower ph, and this is a measure of finished ph, not adjusted ph?

The yeast itself takes the pH down that low. Nothing special required from the brewer on the front end. Ever used K-97 yeast? Yep, acidic.

 

[mac_1103]

Or am I missing something?

That's the pH of the finished beer, not the mash.

 

[Broothru]

The yeast itself takes the pH down that low. Nothing special required from the brewer on the front end. Ever used K-97 yeast? Yep, acidic.

I’m not so ‘sure’ that yeast alone is the determining factor. More likely the culprit is carbonic acid from the CO2 formed and dissolved under pressure during spunding.

In the absence of sufficient buffering from the native brewing water, augmented with the addition of sauergut, could be the true driver of such a low pH.

In a recent experimental batch I brewed Pivo Grodzeski which has a very low finishing ABV of 2.6-2.9%, so to ensure food safety I wanted a pH in the 4.4-4.6 range. My brewing water is slightly alkaline with moderately strong buffering, but with enough acidulated malt I was able to easily get the pH of the finished beer down to 4.6. Usually my finished beers would end up in the pH 4.8-5.0 range.

 

[dmtaylor]

I’m not so ‘sure’ that yeast alone is the determining factor. More likely the culprit is carbonic acid from the CO2 formed and dissolved under pressure during spunding.

You're right of course. The low pH is a combination of all these factors. I oversimplified, as I often do -- oops.

In the absence of sufficient buffering from the native brewing water, augmented with the addition of sauergut, could be the true driver of such a low pH.

But I wouldn't use sauergut or acid in a brown or black ale. *Maybe* in a lager, depending on "stuff" (keeping it simple).

 

[DuncB]

Fortunately Alt not a style that is dry hopped because that raises the pH. I tend to add acid at the end of boil to drop the pH a bit if I'm doing a later dry hop.