What GF ingredients substitute for Pilsner Malt and wheat malt?

[RVAgaffer]

Simple questions but probably a not so simple answer:

What gf malt(s) should be used to substitute for Pilsner Malt?

Should I use Pale Millet malt with a little caramillet, munich, and/or vienna millet malt or is there a good suggestion anyone has discovered yet?

What works for a wheat substitute?

I would like to make a nice Tripel and a Sassion but need to figure out the pilsner substitute.

I am also working out a "Vanilla Wheat-less" recipe and was thinking pale millet and some of the sweeter crystal/cara millet and rice malts to give some residual sweetness and maltyness (in my limited beer experience I am thinking I like more malty flavors and less hoppy/bitter flavors).

 

[Legume]

I think of buckwheat as a wheat substitute, both add body and sometimes haze to the beer.
I dont use buckwheat malt, just lightly toasted hulled buckwheat from the bulk bin.

 

[RVAgaffer]

Legume, that actually answers another question I have been having about why my citrus ale was super hazy, i had 2 lbs of buckwheat and 3 lbs of rice, wasnt sure which one was the culprit but I think i was leaning to buckwheat being it. Seemed to be less haze when i only used 1 lb of buckwheat and 1 lb or rice malts but its only a few days into that brew.

 

[Legume]

I do get a lot of haze from unmalted buckwheat, but I use it any way.
It contributes so much to mouthfeel and head retention that I am happy to ignore the haze.
In my saisons I can even claim its intentional.
I use between 1 and 3 lbs in nearly all my recipies.

Rice syrup also causes a lot of haze. Every batch I have made with rice syrup has been quite hazy.

 

[RVAgaffer]

Do you have your saison recipe posted? I want to make one soon and am trying to figure out my recipe.

 

[Legume]

I am not sure my recipe will be all that helpfull, as I use a lot of non-malted grain and add alot of enzymes...but you can check out the thread below.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=525122

I am drinking a similar (but hoppier) version of this right now. I like brews with Belle Saison yeast, but they need time to mature. There is always a sharp/harsh flavor at first that needs to mellow. They seem good at 1 month in the bottle/keg, and peak at around 6 months.

 

[RVAgaffer]

thanks!

So even the millet you are using unmalted?

I am starting to wonder if I have been putting too much of my recipe design into malt choices to make variations and not really paying enough attention to yeast and hops. I finally ordered different yeasts from what I have been using and will probably try a new yeast this weekend in a new blonde ale recipe I am working up.

My first off the cuff recipe was all malts, 5# pale millet, 3# pale rice, # buckwheat but since it was so cloudy my second recipe i uses mostly millet malts with 1# each of buckwheat malt, rice malts, and quick oats.

I only have a 5 gallon cooler for mashing so my thought process has been not to waste space with rice hulls to help lautering when i can at least get some extra points out of malted and then just make sure to have some buckwheat malt since it gives a lot of good properties to beer as well as helps lautering. At this point I am leaning to minimum 3# of grains that help the lautering... but that may be pointless since I am using a bag.

 

[Legume]

Yes, the millet and buckwheat I use are not malted, but I do very lightly toast them in the oven.
I essentially replace "pale malt" with a 80/20 or 70/30 mix of unmalted millet and buckwheat.
Eckert rice malts are used to add color and malty flavors apropreate for the style (rice malts also improve laturing).
The Eckert malts are all very good, I espeally like the Biscut and James Brown rice malts.
I use a BIAB bag, there is no way I could lauter my crazy grain bills without one.
I usually include 3 to 4 lbs of rice malt in a recipe.

I have had more sucess with this aproach in light colored styles.
My saisons and IPAs are very good, my porters and dunkels need work.

 

[RVAgaffer]

Thanks!

glutardedchris gave me the advise to keep at least 50% pale malts so as I've been planing I have been trying to follow that, usually keeping the buckwheat lower and pretty much ended up at that range you suggest (granted i am using the malted versions but i expect it should translate ok). The Eckert rice malts are the ones I have been using as well... now i just want time to speed up a little so I can see if the 2 recipes I came up with are good.

I was worried that going too high percentage on the lighter rice malts would end up lacking since it seemed that a lot of people use rice to boost points with out really adding much or does that not hold true with malts (i guess i normally read about rice syrup or rice solids to boost points)?

I am trying a blondie style this weekend and trying my first batch without using any sorghum extract, it will be ~almost~ all grain except for 1# of candi syrup (probably the D1 simplicity) and i think magnum and kent goldings

 

[Legume]

There is no shame in a little candi syrup, or even a pound of sucrose.
My efficiency is not all that consistant, if needed I have no problem adding a pound if table sugar.

 

[RVAgaffer]

So I am questioning if I want to continue using sorghum extract in all my brews or not...

I was able to get away with getting gravity I was looking for yesterday in my attempt at a blonde ale (well, it came out kinda dark so it might be more of a dirty blonde ale haha) but on the flip side my oatmeal pub ale that i racked yesterday that i used a little sorghum in was tasting pretty decent. I guess time will tell as I keep trying new things but by the time I can taste a few different brews with and with out the sorghum I will probably have another 4-5 batches going (I am doing a hard push to start a batch every week to get some stuff in the pipe line this month).

On the topic of rice/lautering ability, I am coming to the conclusion that 30+% of the grains used should help with lautering (i.e. rice, buckwheat, oats, etc), I know a lot of people just use rice hulls but I am limited in my set up and frankly I don't want to pay for something and waste space that isn't contributing any points or flavor to the brew.

At this point I have also not seen the ability for GF wort to come out of the mash tun clear but skimming the foam off as the wort is heating and some whirl flock seem to take care of it well.