What factors influence sweetness?

[Hermit]

You are forgetting that when people talk about "taste," they are not simply referring to tastebuds, as smell is 90% of "taste." Malts have a lot of volatile aromas from caramelization or maillard reactions if kilned. This is most like the aroma that comes from the browned crust on a freshly baked loaf of bread.

My second brew was an extract stout that didn't attenuate worth crap. It gets past my nose just fine. It is the palate that makes it a cooking beer. Makes a nice "Sweet" Stout Kraut....

 

[rjwhite41]

Quite a discussion. Although most of it seems off topic, I find it very interesting. I know that crystal malts can add sweetness of varying degrees but I don't believe I have really been able to nail down exactly what causes it all of the time. I vary mash temps just like most AG brewers in an attempt to affect mouthfeel and sweetness/maltiness but I do not always see a direct correlation between the two. I could believe from my experiences that it is a complex relationship amongst many variables.

As far as some people being born with better taste buds; that is most certainly the case. Everyone person that works in my kitchen (I am a Chef) has the natural ability to taste various flavors accutely. For someone it will be sweet, for someone it will be salty. The real trick to getting them to use it properly is to train their tongue to taste all flavors simultaneously and differentiate each one. I guess my point is that no matter what you are born with, it still needs experience and training to perfect it. I think that means we need to continue training our taste buds by continuing to brew and drink!

 

[Hermit]

I know that crystal malts can add sweetness of varying degrees but I don't believe I have really been able to nail down exactly what causes it all of the time.

One maltster, in reply to a recent query: Caramel Malts usually fall into the high 60's range as far as percent fermentable extract.

Declined to be more specific.

 

[rjwhite41]

One maltster, in reply to a recent query: Caramel Malts usually fall into the high 60's range as far as percent fermentable extract.

Declined to be more specific.

Wouldn't the degree of malting affect that? For example, wouldn't a lighter kilned crystal contain more fermentables than a darker kilned one.

 

[rocketman768]

One maltster, in reply to a recent query: Caramel Malts usually fall into the high 60's range as far as percent fermentable extract.

Declined to be more specific.

I think a lot of the infermentability of crystallized malt is the byproducts from the caramelization reactions. As far as I know, caramelization is still poorly understood, but involves isomerization, various re-arranging of the carbon ring structures, and condensation. For example, two monosaccharides can join to form difructose, which is definitely not fermentable.

 

[Sean]

when people talk about "taste," they are not simply referring to tastebuds, as smell is 90% of "taste."

For this exact reason, Hops can make a beer seem sweet.

A DFH 60 clone I made had an ending gravity of 1.008, yet it has rich mouthfeel and seems sweet. Why? The grain bill is 2-row and 6 oz of 60L. Certainly nothing that would add too much unfermentables.

 

[Hermit]

Wouldn't the degree of malting affect that? For example, wouldn't a lighter kilned crystal contain more fermentables than a darker kilned one.

Maybe Cargill will give up more information if people keep asking more questions:
http://www.specialtymalts.com/maltster/

Or take down the page.

 

[Hermit]

I think a lot of the infermentability of crystallized malt is the byproducts from the caramelization reactions. As far as I know, caramelization is still poorly understood, but involves isomerization, various re-arranging of the carbon ring structures, and condensation. For example, two monosaccharides can join to form difructose, which is definitely not fermentable.

I don't know how percent compares to yield numbers but high 70's low 80's seem to be the norm for base malt? I guess I never thought much about it. Made me wonder if candy syrup is repeatedly heated to get more sugars 'converted' but it it seems to have the same 'high 60's' as the malts?


http://www.beersmith.com/forum/index.php?topic=1318.0

Name: Dark Belgian Candi Syrup
Type: Extract
Origin:
Supplier: Dark Candi Inc

Yield: 67.39 %
Potential: 1.031

I wonder if this information together implies a limit to the flavor compounds you can form? Just did a quick Google to see what flavor compounds are formed. Hundreds. Including Diacetyl! Interesting read if you followed any of the candy syrup threads debating caramelized vs Maillard reaction. The line doesn't seem to be that clear cut. : http://www.food-info.net/uk/colour/caramel.htm

 

[rocketman768]

I wonder if this information together implies a limit to the flavor compounds you can form?

No. You can just keep heating it (like any other food) and it'll all turn to charcoal (carbon) because all the hydrogens and oxygens will hook up and float away as water vapor.

 

[rocketman768]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltol

Bam. Found in roasted malts, imparts sweetness, and is used as an artificial flavor enhancer for that exact purpose.

 

[rjwhite41]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltol

Bam. Found in roasted malts, imparts sweetness, and is used as an artificial flavor enhancer for that exact purpose.

If I'm reading that properly then it would leach aluminum from an aluminum pot. Anyone else reading it that way.

 

[Hermit]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltol

Bam. Found in roasted malts, imparts sweetness, and is used as an artificial flavor enhancer for that exact purpose.

I saw this earlier, but it just isn't specific enough to be of much use. "Roasted malt" isn't defined. All malt can be considered roasted to some degree but in beer making it has a specific meaning. Also there isn't a level given. To 'debitter' a black malt you remove the husk.

 

[Hermit]

No. You can just keep heating it (like any other food) and it'll all turn to charcoal (carbon) because all the hydrogens and oxygens will hook up and float away as water vapor.

Well, let's call in within 'normal working limits'. There is a reason that crystal malts stop at a certain level. Jamil mentions one that was darker than Special B but it isn't around anymore.

 

[rocketman768]

Well, let's call in within 'normal working limits'. There is a reason that crystal malts stop at a certain level. Jamil mentions one that was darker than Special B but it isn't around anymore.

Probably because it just tasted burnt. The only practical limit is what tastes good.

 

[rocketman768]

If I'm reading that properly then it would leach aluminum from an aluminum pot. Anyone else reading it that way.

Not true. The article says it increases aluminum uptake in the body...meaning that if aluminum is floating around in your blood, maltol causes it to be absorbed.

 

[sniemeyer]

Jumping back to the original part of this thread, it makes sense that higher mash temps would produce a sweeter tasting beer if long-chain unfermentable, but still sweet tasting, sugars were produced. It is just that I have never read that explanation in the brewing literature. I thought the term "dextrins" referred specifically to long-chain unfermentable sugars, and dextrins supposedly do not taste sweet. However, if there are many different types of polysacharrides that are unfermentable but still taste sweet, then clearly high mash temps would increase the number of these polysacharrides, because by denaturing beta-amylase, you are preventing these polysacharrides from being reduced to short-chain fermentable sugars such as glucose, sucrose, maltose, and maltotriose. So high mash temps would simultaneously reduce fermentability, increase body, and increase sweetness (if there are indeed polysacharrides that are unfermentable but add sweetness).

Now, regarding the second part of the question, are you guys saying that Maltol is the characteristic of certain malts that imparts sweetness to beer? So is it the compound that is in crystal and Munich that is responsible contributing sweetness? The wikipedia link didn't really elaborate on any link between particular malts and this compound. Of course all roasted malts do not impart sweetness. So perhaps only a certain type of roasting produces this compound?

 

[remilard]

Jumping back to the original part of this thread, it makes sense that higher mash temps would produce a sweeter tasting beer if long-chain unfermentable, but still sweet tasting, sugars were produced.

I agree, but that's a big if.

Just empirically speaking, go drink a Lagunitus IPA. That's what a beer mashed at 160F with mostly base malt and a moderately flocculant yeast tastes like. It isn't sweet at all. Now compare that to Fuller's ESB which has a higher proportion of crystal malt (though not a ton), mashes much lower, and uses a very flocculent yeast. It is much sweeter.

Kinda makes you think old uncle remilard is on to something, doesn't it?

 

[Hermit]

I agree, but that's a big if.

Just empirically speaking, go drink a Lagunitus IPA. That's what a beer mashed at 160F with mostly base malt and a moderately flocculant yeast tastes like. It isn't sweet at all. Now compare that to Fuller's ESB which has a higher proportion of crystal malt (though not a ton), mashes much lower, and uses a very flocculent yeast. It is much sweeter.

Kinda makes you think old uncle remilard is on to something, doesn't it?

Or Lagunitus IPA uses lots of hops to balance the sweetness?
Per the film clip on their site. "Just enough bitterness to balance out the sweetness..." So, they say they use a lot of hops in the clip. That means the high mash does produce a lot of sweetness then?
http://www.lagunitas.com/beers/ipa.html

 

[sniemeyer]

So does anyone know if mash temps do have an influence on sweetness? Fundamentally, I just want to figure out what conditions to alter to produce a sweeter or less sweet beer. The question partly arises because I recently tried to brew a relatively sweet fruit beer for my wife, using a combination of Crystal and Honey malt for about 18% of the grain bill, and yet still achieved 75% attenuation using Wyeast 1056 (and a not particularly sweet beer). Anyway, this made me wonder whether most of the perceived "sweetness" of beer is due to residual unfermented, but fermentable, sugars left around by more highly flocculent yeast. The American Ale 1056 is a low flocculator and is good at fully attenuating. As we have discussed, it is not clear whether higher mash temps actually produce sweetness, they may just primarily produce body by leaving more long-chain (non-sweet tasting) dextrins. If that is the case, then the key to brewing a sweeter beer would be to choose the appropriate low-attenuating yeast strain and pitching rate.

 

[Hermit]

So does anyone know if mash temps do have an influence on sweetness? Fundamentally, I just want to figure out what conditions to alter to produce a sweeter or less sweet beer. The question partly arises because I recently tried to brew a relatively sweet fruit beer for my wife, using a combination of Crystal and Honey malt for about 18% of the grain bill, and yet still achieved 75% attenuation using Wyeast 1056 (and a not particularly sweet beer). Anyway, this made me wonder whether most of the perceived "sweetness" of beer is due to residual unfermented, but fermentable, sugars left around by more highly flocculent yeast. The American Ale 1056 is a low flocculator and is good at fully attenuating. As we have discussed, it is not clear whether higher mash temps actually produce sweetness, they may just primarily produce body by leaving more long-chain (non-sweet tasting) dextrins. If that is the case, then the key to brewing a sweeter beer would be to choose the appropriate low-attenuating yeast strain and pitching rate.

I've had a few beers that didn't attenuate to where I wanted them but still carbonate. This tells me the yeast hasn't exactly quite on fermentable sugars. Getting yeast to not eat fermentable sugars I think is harder than most of us think. You don't want to even think of leaving unfermented sugars in your beer if you bottle. If you keg, you can kill the yeast off when you reach a desired level.

Bottom line, you can do this experiment pretty easily yourself. Remember though, sweet is relative in this case. How sweet do you find your unhopped pre boil hydrometer sample. It isn't the same sweetness. I've kicked around the idea of putting a little stevia in during bottling just to see if it is ferementable or not. A little goes a long way so I wouldn't have to worry about bottle bombs if the yeast eat it and could do it to taste. Quick search turned up people using it for cider and were pleased with the results so is probably unfermentable by yeast.

 

[remilard]

Or Lagunitus IPA uses lots of hops to balance the sweetness?
Per the film clip on their site. "Just enough bitterness to balance out the sweetness..." So, they say they use a lot of hops in the clip. That means the high mash does produce a lot of sweetness then?
http://www.lagunitas.com/beers/ipa.html

Lagunitus IPA has about 45 IBUs, pretty low for an IPA and less than half of Sierra Nevada Bigfoot, which is also mashed at a lower temperature.

 

[HotbreakHotel]

So does anyone know if mash temps do have an influence on sweetness?

I'm not one of these genius types, but I brew a lot of beer...I can tell you when I mash higher I get a sweeter beer. And the higher the starting gravity of the beer the stronger the effect.

Of course yeast selection and malt selection will affect the sweetness as well, and IBU's as well as fruit tartness will affect the perception to the drinker.

Lagunitus IPA has about 45 IBUs, pretty low for an IPA and less than half of Sierra Nevada Bigfoot, which is also mashed at a lower temperature.

Bigfoot is 23 plato as opposed to Lag IPA's 14.5. So you can't really compare them when talking about either perception of hoppiness or the effect of mash temperature.

 

[ultravista]

DFH Raison and Rogue Dead Guy are pretty malty. Rogue mashes @ 152, not sure about DFH.

 

[pjj2ba]

What factors do you use to control the sweetness of your beer?

I assume that any difference between the actual attenuation and the limit of attenuation will increase sweetness, as this indicates the presence of residual unfermented sugars. To increase sweetness in this manner, I assume you would choose a less attenuative yeast that flocculates earlier, thus leaving the fermentation incomplete, or by under-pitching. But this seems like a pretty unpredictable process that would be difficult to get exactly right (for instance if you are trying to hit a specific final gravity).

The other factor commonly mentioned is fermentation temperature. But this is a little confusing, because shouldn't higher fermentation temperatures just increase the percentage of unfermentable vs. fermentable sugars -- i.e. creating a more dextrinous beer? Dextrins, I believe, are not actually sweet; they contribute to the body of the beer, so I am unclear as to why fermentation temperature would influence sweetness, if it actually does so.

A third factor would be the type of malt used. Crystal and Munich, for example, are supposed to contribute sweetness. In what way do they do so? Do they just contribute unfermentable but non-dextrinous sugars? -- i.e. sugars that are perceived as sweet but are not fermentable?

My #1 way to control sweetness is the recipe, next is choice of yeast strain, then mash temp, and finally fermentation conditions. The last two may flip flop.

If I want some residual sweetness in a beer I look to get that from specialty malts (and some from Vienna or Munich). It is difficult to make a beer with much residual sweetness using just pilsner or pale malt, no matter what temperature(s) you mash at. By mashing higher, you can get more oligosaccharides in the wort, but once you get above a 3 sugar chain, they don't taste sweet at all, and most of the shorter chain oligosaccharides are fermentable by yeast. There might be a slight increase in sweetness. By way of analogy, using mash temps to control sweetness is like using a step stool to clean your gutters. It gets you closer to where you want to be, but not all the way there. Now get yourself a ladder (alter the recipe) and you can get exactly where you want to be. Mash temps are a tool one could use on the job, but there are much better ones to use.

My mash temps are chosen primarily to control mouthfeel/body of the beer. My Kolsch and Helles have almost identical recipes, but I mash them differently (and use different yeast of course). One is light and crisp, the other much fuller in body. I wouldn't consider either one sweet tasting.

As to the choice of yeast, I use one strain of yeast that typically will finish around 1.008 and another strain that likes to finish around 1.014 with a similar recipe, yet the lower OG beers always taste sweeter. I this case I believe this particular yeast is producing a non-fermentable sweet tasting compound. If you want sweetness, use a yeast with a low attentuation.

One can also get yeast to crap out early and give a high FG. One could do this and then force carb to get a sweeter beer. There is the danger of bottle bombs if bottling though.

One question I have, and may address some of the confusion, is how do dextrins affect perceived bitterness? Do they at all? We are all familiar with residual "sugars" counteracting hop bitterness. I used the term "sugar" as a catchall to include sweet tasting compounds that might not actually be sugars. I'm a bit suspicious that dextrins, while not sweet themselves, still might be able to counteract some hop bitterness, probably not a well as sugars though. Maybe they directly compete for binding sites on the taste buds. If this is the case, then mashing high can reduce bitterness, but not because mashing higher made the beer is sweeter. The mis-assumption is that because the bitterness is less, it must be because mashing high resulted in more sweetness in the final beer.

 

[meadowstream]

An earlier poster pointed out that alcohol itself has an effect on sweetness. I think the poster wrote "mouthfeel" but I think he was addressing the sweetness question. Alcohol is sweet, and a more alcoholic beer (to a point) will taste sweeter than a less alcoholic beer (all other things being equal.) Just another factor to add to the list (maybe it was already added and this is redundant - apologies if this is the case.)