What Exactly Is Happening Here?

[BobBailey]

Well yeah sure, but then there's this whole thread that developed after the first post.... Two weeks primary, and then 1-2 months in the keg is not a green beer. Hell I know plenty of people enjoying all kinds of styles by 3 weeks after the brew day if they're kegging. This is coming from some very respectable people around the community, people who made that top 100 recipes list. So I really don't think this is the OP's problem.

I agree. I only read the OP and not the whole thread. I stand corrected.

 

[oceans11_gt]

I think I run in to this exact issue with my beers as well!! When I taste the beer before kegging and carbonation, just straight from the fermenter, its usually fantastic and I'm excited for when it's cold and carb'd. However after force carbonating, I find that it develops a dish-raggy twang that I attribute to oxidation, some sort of infection, or just something I can't put my finger on.

However, when I bring beers to my homebrew club meetings, no one tastes what I do. (At least they say they don't, VERY frustrating) OP do you find that this off flavor is more pronounced with malty or darker beers? I have found that every time I make a stout or porter I eventually get disgusted with it and dump it. My 80 Schilling Scottish it was there, but to less of a degree. First time I made my Wee Heavy I bottle conditioned and it was fantastic. I made it again and kegged, had the flavor and hated it. If I make a light, or hoppy beer there's almost no off flavor.

Up until this point, I haven't been messing with water profile. I think my tap water may be a big part of the issue. From now on, I am going to start with RO water and add salts to build the correct profile for whatever beer I am making and see if the problem persists.

 

[TheMadKing]

My money is on age. I don't know what your fermentation schedule looks like, but it sounds like you're not giving your beers enough time at warm temps to work out the kinks. After fermentation is complete (as demonstrated by constant gravity readings) I always give my beers at least another week in the primary before racking them to a keg. I also charge them up to 30 PSI and let them sit at room temp for 4 days, bleed off the pressure, set them at serving pressure and then chill them (turning up gas pressure as needed to compensate for the temp drop).

I really think you should give bulk aging in the kegs or a secondary a shot.

 

[Microphobik]

I think I run in to this exact issue with my beers as well!! When I taste the beer before kegging and carbonation, just straight from the fermenter, its usually fantastic and I'm excited for when it's cold and carb'd. However after force carbonating, I find that it develops a dish-raggy twang that I attribute to oxidation, some sort of infection, or just something I can't put my finger on.

However, when I bring beers to my homebrew club meetings, no one tastes what I do. (At least they say they don't, VERY frustrating) OP do you find that this off flavor is more pronounced with malty or darker beers? I have found that every time I make a stout or porter I eventually get disgusted with it and dump it. My 80 Schilling Scottish it was there, but to less of a degree. First time I made my Wee Heavy I bottle conditioned and it was fantastic. I made it again and kegged, had the flavor and hated it. If I make a light, or hoppy beer there's almost no off flavor.

Up until this point, I haven't been messing with water profile. I think my tap water may be a big part of the issue. From now on, I am going to start with RO water and add salts to build the correct profile for whatever beer I am making and see if the problem persists.

The beers in which I find the flavor the most are my malty, lower ABV beers. The worst offenders of late were an Ordinary Bitter and a Scottish 60/-. I used different yeast strains, but both were Marris Otter based and it made me wonder about that malt somehow being part of it. I've noticed it in hoppy and darker beers, but much less pronounced. That could just be because there were other flavors to hide behind. Have you ever tried bottling any of your beers that had the flavor and aging them for a bit to see if the flavor mellowed out?

One of the most striking transformations was the bitter I mentioned. I couldn't drink it. I was embarrassed to serve it. But before dumping it I bottled 6 or 8 bottles of it. They sat on my shelf for a month or so and I just tasted all of my beers using a BJCP score sheet (purely as an exercise) and that same bitter was the beer I ranked highest. I think it's a fantastic beer. I would have swore the problem was oxidation, but I can't imagine a low abv beer ever getting better with even more oxygen and warmer conditions. Really stumping me.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

No. I totally considered that and so I always toss the first inch or two of beer if it's been sitting in the lines for any amount of time. But I know what you mean. I do always taste it more in that first pour but I think that's purely because the lines are higher up in the keezer and are a bit warmer.

You may want to try a small computer fan in the kegerator to circulate air. That'll keep the lines and the keg at the same temp.

Not sure it'll help this issue.

 

[Microphobik]

I thought somebody might find this interesting...

So I just entered a bunch of my beers in a big contest that had almost 600 entries and I got four silver medals and a bronze. My highest rated beer was the Scottish 60/- that I mentioned I was having the issue with. It scored 44 points. Just one away from gold.

So whatever this off flavor is, it's definitely something that is cleaning up, especially once in the bottle at warm temperatures for a while.

I saved a few bottles to taste close to the judging, and that "dishraggy" hint that came on a few weeks into the beer aging has totally disappeared. I compared it to a sample in the keg and the bottled one is better. But the kegged example has improved as well. I'd say the beer is now three months old or so.

What might cause this arch in perceived quality, in which a beer goes from good, to what I found a bit embarassing, to award winning?

Could it be that the CO2 and carbonic acid is pushing certain flavors to the forefront, and then those flavors are melding together as it ages, and that the warmer conditions in the bottle just accelerate that aging?

I think it's safe to say that it's not oxidation.

I really don't think this is all in my head. But it's a weird arch to plan for when you want to have beer in tip top shape for an event.

 

[TCollins]

Did you ever find a definitive culprit?

 

[Microphobik]

Still no culprit. Just the same pattern. Good, then not so good, then really good. Not sure whats up. I'm thinking it's more something in the aging process then something in my personal process, and perhaps that I'm just sensitive to. But it's very odd to me.

 

[JKoravos]

I wouldn't rule out that it's all in your head.

Do some tasting with friends and fellow judges. See what they have to say.

The fact that it's not there prior to carbing then presents itself in the keg and remains after a long period, but goes away when bottled is an odd symptom. I guess carbonic acid is a potential culprit but after 2 months in the keg you should be at equilibrium, without any real excess of carbonic.

Is it there immediately after bottling? When does it subside? More testing!!! More results!!!

 

[Microphobik]

I hear you, but don't think this is all in my head. I don't have anything but macro beer drinkers around me so I don't have anyone reliable to ask, but it's a pretty specific dishrag taste (all be it a subtle one). I've judged homebrew comps before and have tasted it in other people's beers as well.

Just to clarify though, it does eventually go away in the kegs (still have some on tap) just nowhere near as fast as in bottles. Month's instead of days.

As I'm thinking about it, I wonder if it's some combo of carbonic acid and hops. I mentioned noticing it in my maltier beers, but that's what I brew mostly. I have had it in a hoppy pale ale I brewed once, and I remember distinctly noticing it in a hoppy pale ale in a recent homebrew comp as well. It was a situation where I assumed the beer was oxidized because of it, but the other judges didn't pick up on it. Not really sure. All I know is that I have disliked it so much that I have dumped a few times. When it;s gone, I really like the beer.

 

[TCollins]

This happened with my first batch kegged, a English brown ale. I force carbed by shaking for 10-15 minutes at 25 psi. Not really knowing why I just left as is a drank it...In hindsight I believe it wS starting to get better, though it did little to correct it. Following that I kegged the Carmel Amber Ale, and the Centennial Blonde. Both at around 20psi and shook for 10 minutes. Neither had the off flavor...The other day I did 30psi for about 30 hrs no shaking. This batch has the "off" flavor. Going to give it a week or so to equalize, and if that does not work I will remove from the refrigerator and let it sit at room temperature for a week or so....I'll report back. I'm guessing it's a combination of temp, carbonic acid, types of malt and yeast used...but mostly the carbonic acid bringing it to the forefront.

 

[TCollins]

I hear you, but don't think this is all in my head. I don't have anything but macro beer drinkers around me so I don't have anyone reliable to ask, but it's a pretty specific dishrag taste (all be it a subtle one). I've judged homebrew comps before and have tasted it in other people's beers as well.

Just to clarify though, it does eventually go away in the kegs (still have some on tap) just nowhere near as fast as in bottles. Month's instead of days.

As I'm thinking about it, I wonder if it's some combo of carbonic acid and hops. I mentioned noticing it in my maltier beers, but that's what I brew mostly. I have had it in a hoppy pale ale I brewed once, and I remember distinctly noticing it in a hoppy pale ale in a recent homebrew comp as well. It was a situation where I assumed the beer was oxidized because of it, but the other judges didn't pick up on it. Not really sure. All I know is that I have disliked it so much that I have dumped a few times. When it;s gone, I really like the beer.

Yeah I forgot to mention hops playing a role as well. The bitterness of the hops mixed with carbonic acid is definitely a possibility. I don't think it's in your head. If it's the same thing Im experiencing it's definitely there...

 

[TCollins]

Edited for double post...my apologies

 

[Microphobik]

Yeah I forgot to mention hops playing a role as well. The bitterness of the hops mixed with carbonic acid is definitely a possibility. I don't think it's in your head. If it's the same thing Im experiencing it's definitely there...

Interesting. Nice to know someone else is experiencing this. I typically give it a bit of a shake on 30 PSI but I don't over do it. Just a minute or less. Then let it sit for about 48 hours at 30 PSI and then drop it. It tastes great for the first week, but then gets that subtly unpleasant taste, and then in time becomes great. Let me know what happens with yours. I guess I should try the set it and forget it method and see if that avoids the problem. Just hard to wait two weeks

 

[joshesmusica]

Just hard to wait two weeks

But isn't that better than waiting a couple of months for it to get better again? And especially better than dumping batches, which means waiting at least another two weeks for it to ferment out?

I honestly think you're overcarbing it. I think 48hrs at 30 psi is way too long.

Here's a very well-respected brewer who goes maximum 36 hours at that high of PSI, and then another key is purging it down to your serving temp after that.
http://brulosophy.com/methods/kegging-method/

 

[Microphobik]

But isn't that better than waiting a couple of months for it to get better again? And especially better than dumping batches, which means waiting at least another two weeks for it to ferment out?

I honestly think you're overcarbing it. I think 48hrs at 30 psi is way too long.

Here's a very well-respected brewer who goes maximum 36 hours at that high of PSI, and then another key is purging it down to your serving temp after that.
http://brulosophy.com/methods/kegging-method/

Yes, certainly a good point.

But I don't think I'm over carbing it at all. After that amount if time I am certainly not getting overly carbed beers. They tastes/feels/looks like the CO2 volumes are at about 2.0 at that stage, and then they slowly come up to my desired level. I set my keezer at 40 degrees and that experience has been pretty consistent. I am usually targeting about 2.5 unless it's a lower ABV British beer. The 30 Psi for 48 hours is also what was recommended by the brew shop and the keg kit I first bought. Who knows. Could be the regulator is off slightly.

But I'm not saying that those levels are not contributing to the off flavor. The more people chime in, the more it seems likely it is connected.

Thanks.

 

[joshesmusica]

Yes, certainly a good point.

But I don't think I'm over carbing it at all. After that amount if time I am certainly not getting overly carbed beers. They tastes/feels/looks like the CO2 volumes are at about 2.0 at that stage, and then they slowly come up to my desired level. I set my keezer at 40 degrees and that experience has been pretty consistent. I am usually targeting about 2.5 unless it's a lower ABV British beer. The 30 Psi for 48 hours is also what was recommended by the brew shop and the keg kit I first bought. Who knows. Could be the regulator is off slightly.

But I'm not saying that those levels are not contributing to the off flavor. The more people chime in, the more it seems likely it is connected.

Thanks.

Check out that link I sent you. The dude's often talking about drinking beer 3 days after kegging, and that they're perfectly carbonated. I'm not saying that there must be some smart LHBS owners out there, I just haven't come across any yet. I hardly ever listen to advice from the ones I've been to.

You didn't mention, since you started this thread, have you tried warming up a problematic keg for a week, and then chilling back down and trying again? The reason I'm most convinced that it has something to do with your kegging process is that it's going away once you have bottled, and those bottles have sat at room temp. Chemical reactions happen much, much faster at room temps over fridge temps.

I say, on your next one, try 30 psi for 24 hours, then purge down to your serving temps, then wait 2 more days, and see what it's like. And don't shake. There's no way to be able to know how much co2 you're dissolving in by doing that. (And that's the part that also majorly differs between you and the process that brulosopher describes. he doesn't shake, and he's letting them sit at 30 for 12-24 hours less than you. all of that can add up to a big difference in carb levels). But also, if you didn't do such a great job at purging the keg, then you're also quickly dissolving in any oxygen that was present.

Also, here's a chart I like to use for force carbonation, instead of just guessing what it feels like:
http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php

 

[Microphobik]

Check out that link I sent you. The dude's often talking about drinking beer 3 days after kegging, and that they're perfectly carbonated. I'm not saying that there must be some smart LHBS owners out there, I just haven't come across any yet. I hardly ever listen to advice from the ones I've been to.

You didn't mention, since you started this thread, have you tried warming up a problematic keg for a week, and then chilling back down and trying again? The reason I'm most convinced that it has something to do with your kegging process is that it's going away once you have bottled, and those bottles have sat at room temp. Chemical reactions happen much, much faster at room temps over fridge temps.

I say, on your next one, try 30 psi for 24 hours, then purge down to your serving temps, then wait 2 more days, and see what it's like. And don't shake. There's no way to be able to know how much co2 you're dissolving in by doing that. (And that's the part that also majorly differs between you and the process that brulosopher describes. he doesn't shake, and he's letting them sit at 30 for 12-24 hours less than you. all of that can add up to a big difference in carb levels). But also, if you didn't do such a great job at purging the keg, then you're also quickly dissolving in any oxygen that was present.

Also, here's a chart I like to use for force carbonation, instead of just guessing what it feels like:
http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php

Hi,

I'm not trying to suggest that I am guessing at my carbonation levels. I actually use the same chart. When I mentioned guessing it was in relation to coming off of the 30 Psi for 48 hours carbing, mixed with a little shaking at the beggining. But I purge a few times after that initial period and after a week or so I assume I am at the carb levels that the chart shows. For most of my beers I target 2.5 volumes. Or 13 psi at 40 degrees F. But coming off of the force carb period there is a bit of tasting and common sense that tells you if you have dramatically over or under shot. I have never overcarbed by doing this. The foam, the carbonic bite, and the lower levels of visible bubbles, make this pretty clear to my mind.

But I do think there could be something to what some have suggested, and perhaps the carbonic acid is not properly blending with the rest of the flavors in the beer because of the force carbing, and that may be something I'm just personally sensitive to.

And yes, I totally agree that it's the warn temperatures that are speeding up whatever chemical process is responsible for the improvement in the bottle. I have not tried warming up a keg though.

 

[TCollins]

I just pulled mine off the line and I'm going to let it sit at room temp for a week or more. It was better day two, but I'd like to see if this works rather then wait much longer then a week! I will certainly report back.

 

[TCollins]

It just dawned on me that this "off" flavor I'm getting has occurred twice both the first batch ran through the two cornys I inherited. Neither had been used for beer. I put it back on and the flavor is still there though not as pronounced.....I'll give it a while before I have a final verdict. Beer is drinkable, just not what I had in mind. Could be perceived I suppose. It was a clone, so I'm going to try and judge it on its own merit ultimately. We'll see...

 

[Microphobik]

So I've sat with a few beers for a few months now since the original thread. The Scottish 60/- I mentioned in the original post has (which I still have on tap) has cleaned up beautifully now in the keg. And something has dawned on me... I wonder if this off flavor is connected to the yeast settling to the bottom of the keg?

My thinking being that, because I cold crash before kegging, there is no significant additional settling in that first week after kegging. But once the beer starts to age for a moment any remaining yeast starts to drop out completely and perhaps create sediment at the bottom.

I noticed that my dip tubes go right down to the bottom, even touching the bottom depending on how it's sitting. That might explain why my bottled beers taste good within just a few days, but the keg beer goes from good, to bad, to great (once the yeast has completely finished settling).

I don't see any noticable yeast or cloudiness in the glass (in fact it's quite clear). But perhaps I'm just sensitive to whatever flavor yeast contributions? This sound about right to anyone?

I'm wondering if I should cut an inch off my dip tube? Thoughts?

 

[jddevinn]

So I've sat with a few beers for a few months now since the original thread. The Scottish 60/- I mentioned in the original post has (which I still have on tap) has cleaned up beautifully now in the keg. And something has dawned on me... I wonder if this off flavor is connected to the yeast settling to the bottom of the keg?

My thinking being that, because I cold crash before kegging, there is no significant additional settling in that first week after kegging. But once the beer starts to age for a moment any remaining yeast starts to drop out completely and perhaps create sediment at the bottom.

I noticed that my dip tubes go right down to the bottom, even touching the bottom depending on how it's sitting. That might explain why my bottled beers taste good within just a few days, but the keg beer goes from good, to bad, to great (once the yeast has completely finished settling).

I don't see any noticable yeast or cloudiness in the glass (in fact it's quite clear). But perhaps I'm just sensitive to whatever flavor yeast contributions? This sound about right to anyone?

I'm wondering if I should cut an inch off my dip tube? Thoughts?

Give a keg a shake while its in the "bad" phase and see if it instantly gets better? I cold crash too and normally have the little amount of trub that I transfer and yeast settle out almost immediately. (can hook up gas to carb and pour a "cloudy" class instantly, will take a couple pints to clear up)

 

[Microphobik]

I could possibly try that next time. The beer is well out of the bad phase now so I can't at the moment. But one thing that I have noticed is that when it's in that bad phase the first pour is always worse than later pours.

 

[TCollins]

This keg just kicked the other day and I'm convinced the "off" flavor had to do with the hops.

 

[Microphobik]

This keg just kicked the other day and I'm convinced the "off" flavor had to do with the hops.

Maybe old or oxidized hops in your case? They can throw off a musty or cheesy smell sometimes. They could have been poorly stored anywhere along the supply line.