What Exactly Is Happening Here?

[TCollins]

This happened with my first batch kegged, a English brown ale. I force carbed by shaking for 10-15 minutes at 25 psi. Not really knowing why I just left as is a drank it...In hindsight I believe it wS starting to get better, though it did little to correct it. Following that I kegged the Carmel Amber Ale, and the Centennial Blonde. Both at around 20psi and shook for 10 minutes. Neither had the off flavor...The other day I did 30psi for about 30 hrs no shaking. This batch has the "off" flavor. Going to give it a week or so to equalize, and if that does not work I will remove from the refrigerator and let it sit at room temperature for a week or so....I'll report back. I'm guessing it's a combination of temp, carbonic acid, types of malt and yeast used...but mostly the carbonic acid bringing it to the forefront.

 

[TCollins]

I hear you, but don't think this is all in my head. I don't have anything but macro beer drinkers around me so I don't have anyone reliable to ask, but it's a pretty specific dishrag taste (all be it a subtle one). I've judged homebrew comps before and have tasted it in other people's beers as well.

Just to clarify though, it does eventually go away in the kegs (still have some on tap) just nowhere near as fast as in bottles. Month's instead of days.

As I'm thinking about it, I wonder if it's some combo of carbonic acid and hops. I mentioned noticing it in my maltier beers, but that's what I brew mostly. I have had it in a hoppy pale ale I brewed once, and I remember distinctly noticing it in a hoppy pale ale in a recent homebrew comp as well. It was a situation where I assumed the beer was oxidized because of it, but the other judges didn't pick up on it. Not really sure. All I know is that I have disliked it so much that I have dumped a few times. When it;s gone, I really like the beer.

Yeah I forgot to mention hops playing a role as well. The bitterness of the hops mixed with carbonic acid is definitely a possibility. I don't think it's in your head. If it's the same thing Im experiencing it's definitely there...

 

[TCollins]

Edited for double post...my apologies

 

[Microphobik]

Yeah I forgot to mention hops playing a role as well. The bitterness of the hops mixed with carbonic acid is definitely a possibility. I don't think it's in your head. If it's the same thing Im experiencing it's definitely there...

Interesting. Nice to know someone else is experiencing this. I typically give it a bit of a shake on 30 PSI but I don't over do it. Just a minute or less. Then let it sit for about 48 hours at 30 PSI and then drop it. It tastes great for the first week, but then gets that subtly unpleasant taste, and then in time becomes great. Let me know what happens with yours. I guess I should try the set it and forget it method and see if that avoids the problem. Just hard to wait two weeks

 

[joshesmusica]

Just hard to wait two weeks

But isn't that better than waiting a couple of months for it to get better again? And especially better than dumping batches, which means waiting at least another two weeks for it to ferment out?

I honestly think you're overcarbing it. I think 48hrs at 30 psi is way too long.

Here's a very well-respected brewer who goes maximum 36 hours at that high of PSI, and then another key is purging it down to your serving temp after that.
http://brulosophy.com/methods/kegging-method/

 

[Microphobik]

But isn't that better than waiting a couple of months for it to get better again? And especially better than dumping batches, which means waiting at least another two weeks for it to ferment out?

I honestly think you're overcarbing it. I think 48hrs at 30 psi is way too long.

Here's a very well-respected brewer who goes maximum 36 hours at that high of PSI, and then another key is purging it down to your serving temp after that.
http://brulosophy.com/methods/kegging-method/

Yes, certainly a good point.

But I don't think I'm over carbing it at all. After that amount if time I am certainly not getting overly carbed beers. They tastes/feels/looks like the CO2 volumes are at about 2.0 at that stage, and then they slowly come up to my desired level. I set my keezer at 40 degrees and that experience has been pretty consistent. I am usually targeting about 2.5 unless it's a lower ABV British beer. The 30 Psi for 48 hours is also what was recommended by the brew shop and the keg kit I first bought. Who knows. Could be the regulator is off slightly.

But I'm not saying that those levels are not contributing to the off flavor. The more people chime in, the more it seems likely it is connected.

Thanks.

 

[joshesmusica]

Yes, certainly a good point.

But I don't think I'm over carbing it at all. After that amount if time I am certainly not getting overly carbed beers. They tastes/feels/looks like the CO2 volumes are at about 2.0 at that stage, and then they slowly come up to my desired level. I set my keezer at 40 degrees and that experience has been pretty consistent. I am usually targeting about 2.5 unless it's a lower ABV British beer. The 30 Psi for 48 hours is also what was recommended by the brew shop and the keg kit I first bought. Who knows. Could be the regulator is off slightly.

But I'm not saying that those levels are not contributing to the off flavor. The more people chime in, the more it seems likely it is connected.

Thanks.

Check out that link I sent you. The dude's often talking about drinking beer 3 days after kegging, and that they're perfectly carbonated. I'm not saying that there must be some smart LHBS owners out there, I just haven't come across any yet. I hardly ever listen to advice from the ones I've been to.

You didn't mention, since you started this thread, have you tried warming up a problematic keg for a week, and then chilling back down and trying again? The reason I'm most convinced that it has something to do with your kegging process is that it's going away once you have bottled, and those bottles have sat at room temp. Chemical reactions happen much, much faster at room temps over fridge temps.

I say, on your next one, try 30 psi for 24 hours, then purge down to your serving temps, then wait 2 more days, and see what it's like. And don't shake. There's no way to be able to know how much co2 you're dissolving in by doing that. (And that's the part that also majorly differs between you and the process that brulosopher describes. he doesn't shake, and he's letting them sit at 30 for 12-24 hours less than you. all of that can add up to a big difference in carb levels). But also, if you didn't do such a great job at purging the keg, then you're also quickly dissolving in any oxygen that was present.

Also, here's a chart I like to use for force carbonation, instead of just guessing what it feels like:
http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php

 

[Microphobik]

Check out that link I sent you. The dude's often talking about drinking beer 3 days after kegging, and that they're perfectly carbonated. I'm not saying that there must be some smart LHBS owners out there, I just haven't come across any yet. I hardly ever listen to advice from the ones I've been to.

You didn't mention, since you started this thread, have you tried warming up a problematic keg for a week, and then chilling back down and trying again? The reason I'm most convinced that it has something to do with your kegging process is that it's going away once you have bottled, and those bottles have sat at room temp. Chemical reactions happen much, much faster at room temps over fridge temps.

I say, on your next one, try 30 psi for 24 hours, then purge down to your serving temps, then wait 2 more days, and see what it's like. And don't shake. There's no way to be able to know how much co2 you're dissolving in by doing that. (And that's the part that also majorly differs between you and the process that brulosopher describes. he doesn't shake, and he's letting them sit at 30 for 12-24 hours less than you. all of that can add up to a big difference in carb levels). But also, if you didn't do such a great job at purging the keg, then you're also quickly dissolving in any oxygen that was present.

Also, here's a chart I like to use for force carbonation, instead of just guessing what it feels like:
http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php

Hi,

I'm not trying to suggest that I am guessing at my carbonation levels. I actually use the same chart. When I mentioned guessing it was in relation to coming off of the 30 Psi for 48 hours carbing, mixed with a little shaking at the beggining. But I purge a few times after that initial period and after a week or so I assume I am at the carb levels that the chart shows. For most of my beers I target 2.5 volumes. Or 13 psi at 40 degrees F. But coming off of the force carb period there is a bit of tasting and common sense that tells you if you have dramatically over or under shot. I have never overcarbed by doing this. The foam, the carbonic bite, and the lower levels of visible bubbles, make this pretty clear to my mind.

But I do think there could be something to what some have suggested, and perhaps the carbonic acid is not properly blending with the rest of the flavors in the beer because of the force carbing, and that may be something I'm just personally sensitive to.

And yes, I totally agree that it's the warn temperatures that are speeding up whatever chemical process is responsible for the improvement in the bottle. I have not tried warming up a keg though.

 

[TCollins]

I just pulled mine off the line and I'm going to let it sit at room temp for a week or more. It was better day two, but I'd like to see if this works rather then wait much longer then a week! I will certainly report back.

 

[TCollins]

It just dawned on me that this "off" flavor I'm getting has occurred twice both the first batch ran through the two cornys I inherited. Neither had been used for beer. I put it back on and the flavor is still there though not as pronounced.....I'll give it a while before I have a final verdict. Beer is drinkable, just not what I had in mind. Could be perceived I suppose. It was a clone, so I'm going to try and judge it on its own merit ultimately. We'll see...

 

[Microphobik]

So I've sat with a few beers for a few months now since the original thread. The Scottish 60/- I mentioned in the original post has (which I still have on tap) has cleaned up beautifully now in the keg. And something has dawned on me... I wonder if this off flavor is connected to the yeast settling to the bottom of the keg?

My thinking being that, because I cold crash before kegging, there is no significant additional settling in that first week after kegging. But once the beer starts to age for a moment any remaining yeast starts to drop out completely and perhaps create sediment at the bottom.

I noticed that my dip tubes go right down to the bottom, even touching the bottom depending on how it's sitting. That might explain why my bottled beers taste good within just a few days, but the keg beer goes from good, to bad, to great (once the yeast has completely finished settling).

I don't see any noticable yeast or cloudiness in the glass (in fact it's quite clear). But perhaps I'm just sensitive to whatever flavor yeast contributions? This sound about right to anyone?

I'm wondering if I should cut an inch off my dip tube? Thoughts?

 

[jddevinn]

So I've sat with a few beers for a few months now since the original thread. The Scottish 60/- I mentioned in the original post has (which I still have on tap) has cleaned up beautifully now in the keg. And something has dawned on me... I wonder if this off flavor is connected to the yeast settling to the bottom of the keg?

My thinking being that, because I cold crash before kegging, there is no significant additional settling in that first week after kegging. But once the beer starts to age for a moment any remaining yeast starts to drop out completely and perhaps create sediment at the bottom.

I noticed that my dip tubes go right down to the bottom, even touching the bottom depending on how it's sitting. That might explain why my bottled beers taste good within just a few days, but the keg beer goes from good, to bad, to great (once the yeast has completely finished settling).

I don't see any noticable yeast or cloudiness in the glass (in fact it's quite clear). But perhaps I'm just sensitive to whatever flavor yeast contributions? This sound about right to anyone?

I'm wondering if I should cut an inch off my dip tube? Thoughts?

Give a keg a shake while its in the "bad" phase and see if it instantly gets better? I cold crash too and normally have the little amount of trub that I transfer and yeast settle out almost immediately. (can hook up gas to carb and pour a "cloudy" class instantly, will take a couple pints to clear up)

 

[Microphobik]

I could possibly try that next time. The beer is well out of the bad phase now so I can't at the moment. But one thing that I have noticed is that when it's in that bad phase the first pour is always worse than later pours.

 

[TCollins]

This keg just kicked the other day and I'm convinced the "off" flavor had to do with the hops.

 

[Microphobik]

This keg just kicked the other day and I'm convinced the "off" flavor had to do with the hops.

Maybe old or oxidized hops in your case? They can throw off a musty or cheesy smell sometimes. They could have been poorly stored anywhere along the supply line.