What does a Märzen taste like?

[Sadu]

So I brewed a Märzen and a Vienna lager as I work my way through Brewing Classic Styles. Pretty much brewed those recipes as designed but subbed for w34/70 instead of S23.

Both came out ok, but have this heavy, rich malty flavour. Since I'm not sure about these styles (can't get them locally) it's hard to say if I have an off-flavour or if all that munich and vienna malt is giving it a serious hit of flavour that is meant to be there.

Jamil specifically says not to make the Märzen too big, and I kinda screwed that up by mashing too low (bad thermometer) and overshooting the FG by a few points. Vienna came out at 5.6% and Märzen at 5.8%. It's not that they are bad beers, just I wouldn't call them easy drinking and I can't say I'd want to drink them by the litre - I'd reach for the helles every time.

So my question is for people who drink these styles - is this rich heavy flavour part of the style, and maybe this style just isn't for me - or have I screwed something and made an easy-drinking style into something it shouldn't be?

 

[dmtaylor]

A marzen should not be heavy. It should be delicious, toasty and clean, and very easy to drink. To me a marzen constitutes the essential baseline definition of what all beer should taste like, in the most generic yet elegant sense of the term -- malty, spicy, somewhat bitter, but easy to drink. I must say, it can be an acquired taste. When I first tasted it many years ago, I felt it was too bitter and had to drink it in small sips. A few hundred IPAs later and I think it is just a wonderful change of pace from all of the hop bombs out there.

 

[Sadu]

Yeah, it's the easy drinking part that I'm struggling with. This has a balanced bitterness, but that malty richness is annoying me and I feel that drinkability is missing here.

I was in Germany for 6 months in 2009, and would have drank dozens of these. Back then beer was beer and I didnt much care for the nuances of each style, while I enjoyed all the beer there I couldn't pick why. So I don't have any reference to compare with.

 

[dmtaylor]

You spent 6 months in Germany and have no reference to compare with? Sorry, but somehow I just find this hilarious.

Most people these days, it seems, are hopheads and don't really care about malt. Perhaps you are one of these people. It might just come down to personal preference.

On the other hand, if you know of any BJCP judges or homebrew clubs in your area, have them taste the beer and see if they can detect anything unusual. Then you might know for sure if something else is going on.

Cheers.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Marzen is meant to showcase the malt yet maintain balance.

I get what you are saying about no reference. Back when in Germany, you had a less defined appreciation for beer and thus did not focus on nuances of style.

 

[ericbw]

Marzen is meant to showcase the malt yet maintain balance.

I get what you are saying about no reference. Back when in Germany, you had a less defined appreciation for beer and thus did not focus on nuances of style.

This is what I think. Marzen should be "rich" with malt flavor, but still crisp and light.

 

[Sadu]

You spent 6 months in Germany and have no reference to compare with? Sorry, but somehow I just find this hilarious.

Ya, I'll give you that

But allow me to offer some context on how this traversty could happen. I wasn't a beer nerd back then. I'd never been exposed to awesome cheap beer like Berlin has to offer.

I'd generally just rock up to the bar and ask for ein bier bitte and always got something waaaay better than what I would be drinking at home. Sure I knew what a hefeweizen or dunkelweizen was but I wasn't really caring about the finer points of difference between German pils and Munich helles. I suspect the Oktoberfest / Märzen style fell into the gaps of "damn this is good beer".

Fast forward to 2016 where I started brewing beer specifically because German beers aren't available locally - I kinda wish I'd been paying more attention.

 

[jekeane]

Sierra Nevadas Oktoberfest is out as well as Sam adams version they should both be readily available. I think they are solid overall examples of the style with Sam adams being slightly too malty and the sierra nevada maybe lacking a touch of malt balance. but the should give you a solid reference point.

 

[Kent88]

Fantastic. Well, most of it anyway. I just went to the local craft brew bar for their oktoberfest and I've since bought a couple other marzens and 3/4 of them were great.

I'm actually horrible at describing tastes. What styles of lagers have you tried that might be comparable? Any bocks?

Might help if people had a starting point while describing the beer for you.

 

[iijakii]

What were the recipes?

One thing to keep in mind about Oktos/Marzens is that the style is very ambiguous. Even in Germany you will have festbiers that are almost helles they're so light on the munich, all the way to super malty dunkel wanna-bes.

Also, did you accidentally use Munich 20 or maybe even a caramunich instead of jut base Munich 10L? Not use enough hops?

 

[schematix]

I keep my Marzen on the low end of the BJCP OG range (low 1.050s), if not slightly under, because I like it to be easy drinking, despite the rich malty flavors. Hockhurz mash works great too.

It should be a rich and malt focused beer. If you taste hops or get a strong bittering finish then you've made it too hoppy (unless of course you like it that way, but now it's not really a marzen anymore).

 

[Sadu]

What were the recipes?

One thing to keep in mind about Oktos/Marzens is that the style is very ambiguous. Even in Germany you will have festbiers that are almost helles they're so light on the munich, all the way to super malty dunkel wanna-bes.

Also, did you accidentally use Munich 20 or maybe even a caramunich instead of jut base Munich 10L? Not use enough hops?

Here are the recipes - taken from brewing classic styles, a few subs made to fit with local ingredients. I can't imagine using Liberty instead of Hallertau would make a huge difference in a malty beer, likewise using 34/70 instead of s23. One thing that could definitely be working against me is using New Zealand malts instead of German. I use Weyerman specialty malts but don't have easy access to their base malts.

Marzen:
OG 1.055 FG 1.010
39% Pilsen
31% Munich (6.4L)
23% Vienna
7% Caramunich II
24 IBU Liberty @ 60
3 IBU Liberty @ 20
Saflager 34/70 from slurry, ferment at 10c/50f with d-rest at 1.012

Vienna lager:
OG 1.053 FG 1.010
45% Vienna
30% Pilsen
23% Munich (6.4L)
1.4% Carafa II
24 IBU Liberty @ 60
3 IBU Liberty @ 10
Saflager 34/70 from slurry, ferment at 10c/50f begin ramping to d-rest at 1.022

These were single infusion mashes and I discovered (after brewing these) that my mash thermometer is inaccurate. So I don't know the actual mash temperature. Suspect it was low since the FG was 2 points lower than expected on both beers.

I thought I'd give this another go, 1 gallon batch, target a lower OG, use less munich and more Pilsener malt, new thermometer on the mash temperatures. I don't think these are terrible beers, just they miss the mark on being sessionable which is a key part of the style.

If anyone has any other suggestions I'm listening.

Edit: Also my water profile is somewhere between Pilsen and Munich - soft. I didn't add any adjustments for these but the water should be pretty close anyway.

 

[iijakii]

Personally I'd drop that caramunich altogether and stick to the 1/3rds of each on the okto. Personal taste territory though.

 

[Sadu]

So I'm just going to necro this thread to post an update.

It's been 3 months since I bottled the vienna lager and I just drank the last one. Been in the fridge the whole time.

All that "malty rich" flavour is gone and what is left is easy-drinking deliciousness. Probably exactly what a Vianna lager is supposed to taste like. This was a 1 gallon batch so there wasn't that many bottles to start with, but if the same thing happens with the Marzen (which is 5 gallons and mostly intact) I'll be super-happy.

Feeling like a noob right now for raising the alarm without letting the time gods have their way with the beer.

 

[TheMadKing]

So I'm just going to necro this thread to post an update.

It's been 3 months since I bottled the vienna lager and I just drank the last one. Been in the fridge the whole time.

All that "malty rich" flavour is gone and what is left is easy-drinking deliciousness. Probably exactly what a Vianna lager is supposed to taste like. This was a 1 gallon batch so there wasn't that many bottles to start with, but if the same thing happens with the Marzen (which is 5 gallons and mostly intact) I'll be super-happy.

Feeling like a noob right now for raising the alarm without letting the time gods have their way with the beer.

Glad to hear it cleaned up!

I started reading from the beginning and that was going to be my question on the Marzen, how long have you cold conditioned it.

I think more than any other style, the Marzen benefits from time. Many "quick lager" folks will say it's all about clarity and when it's clear its ready.

I disagree and firmly believe that something is happening during the long lagering that makes the maltiness crisper and less heavy. Maybe its just as simple as proteins dropping out, or very slight oxidation, but whatever it is, I always age my Marzen and altbiers for 2 months before drinking them.

I'll drink a pilsner, kolsch, or helles as soon as its clear though.

 

[jekeane]

I had a vienna this year go from low 30's to a 39/40 medal winner over about a 3 month period of lagering this past year. The beer had been kegged for about a 3 weeks before the first comp and probably 4 months total by the time it was judged the second time. I have used the quicker layering methods with success but my best lagers have all been more traditional time tables.

 

[Sadu]

Many "quick lager" folks will say it's all about clarity and when it's clear its ready.

I disagree and firmly believe that something is happening during the long lagering that makes the maltiness crisper and less heavy.

I have about 10 lagers under my belt now and have come to that same conclusion. I have largely used the Brulosophy quick-lager method where it gets stepped up to almost ale temps for about a week once it's over 50% attenuated, then cold crashed and packaged.

The Brulosophy article says this...

I know, there’s supposedly something else that magically happens to a beer over time besides just clarity, but let’s be real here, clarity is what most of us are waiting for as the indication that a beer is ready to drink. And if I’m being totally honest, I sort of enjoy the very minimal perceptible changes that occur in a beer over the 2-3 weeks I have it on tap.

This hasn't been my experience at all. My lagers are crystal clear long before they taste good and that "something else that magically happens", for me, is a very necessary part of the process if good tasting beer is the goal.

Not going to knock their method since it clearly works for them, but I certainly haven't been able to replicate great lagers with quick turnaround.

 

[imasickboy]

Time does indeed improve many beers. With the current hop craze and obsessive fear of oxidation leading to most beers being consumed really early, it seems to be forgotten why beers were racked to secondary in the first place. Because time made better beers.

I'm happy your beer turned out to your liking. Don't mess with the recipes in BCS, until you've nailed down the technique required for making them properly. You'll learn a lot.

 

[Bosh]

Sierra Nevadas Oktoberfest is out as well as Sam adams version they should both be readily available. I think they are solid overall examples of the style with Sam adams being slightly too malty and the sierra nevada maybe lacking a touch of malt balance. but the should give you a solid reference point.

Found the Sam Adams Octoberfest to be cloyingly sweet personally.

 

[govner1]

I agree re SA

 

[jekeane]

Found the Sam Adams Octoberfest to be cloyingly sweet personally.

I can see that It seems to vary a bit year to year and I feel I liked there version more a few years back. I think that the Sam Adams and Sierra Nevada are good because they show pretty opposite ends of the style. Both to me seem to be just on the outer fringes of malty vs bitter examples.

 

[Lefou]

Good, but short thread.
The beer humor and info about aging was too good to miss. LOL

 

[suddenlysamuel]

My latest Marzen recommendation is Flying Dog "Dogtoberfest."

Tastes amazing! Should be available widely.

As soon as I get into lagering, I would love to do a Marzen right away. Maybe practice on something a touch lighter first.