What contributes most to aroma?

[Maylar]

I entered what I thought was a very nice cider in a local competition, and both judges noted very little apple aroma. I'm wondering what are the significant factors that affect that - is it just the apples? Or the yeast, or temperature? All of the above?

 

[bucketnative]

Insight here?

Dixon, J., & Hewett, E. W. (2000). Factors affecting apple aroma/flavour volatile concentration: A Review. New Zealand Journal of Crop and Horticultural Science, 28(3), 155-173. doi:10.1080/01140671.2000.9514136

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/01140671.2000.9514136?needAccess=true

Haven't read it, but I did some sleuthing on some other sites and they referenced this review article. I plan on reading it later.

 

[mwilcox]

apples and carbonation. yeast choice and fermentation temp could certainly create greater amounts of aroma, but I've yet to find them a net positive...

what kind of other comments did they have? also, how about some details on the cider?

 

[Maylar]

apples and carbonation. yeast choice and fermentation temp could certainly create greater amounts of aroma, but I've yet to find them a net positive...

what kind of other comments did they have? also, how about some details on the cider?

Standard C1A New World Cider. Orchard cider from a local mill, S-04 yeast, 65°F. Aged 8 months. Semi-sweet (1.012 with FAJC), petillant carbonation (2.4 volumes).

Judges noted low acid and tannins, which is understandable for "table cider". Low acid also gives an impression of sweetness beyond the 1.012 actual sugar content. I need to pay attention to that balance in the future.

Flavor was noted as being "better than it smelled", which again says lacking apple aroma. I can alter acid and tannins but I'm at a loss where to put my efforts for improving aroma.

 

[MindenMan]

Yeast and fermentation temp make the largest difference.

 

[madscientist451]

Flavor was noted as being "better than it smelled", which again says lacking apple aroma.

"better than it smelled" ? Could the judges have detected a smell they didn't like?
Off-putting smells are usually fermentation/yeast problems.
Lack of "apple smell" can be either lack of fragrant or aromatic apples in the original blend or a fast fermentation that blew off most of the aroma or both.
Some Aromatic apple varieties are Macintosh, Cox's Orange Pippen, Esopsus Spizenberg, Ida Red, Grimes Golden, Melrose, Sops of Wine, York and many others. Allowing the apples to fully ripen on the tree can affect aroma and other variables in apples. Most, if not all commercial orchards pick all the apples before they are ripe, you can ripen them at home in storage, but the aromatic qualities won't be the same.

 

[Maylar]

From the article linked in bucketnative's reply, it looks like the apple cultivars and ripeness are the biggest factors. I know that yeasts can definitely influence flavor and aroma, but some of them add their own esters that might not be "apple".

Specifically, the two judges had these comments on aroma/bouquet:

"Some apple but seems a bit phenolic or even solventy" Score 5/10.

"Sour apple candy, carmel, butterscotch, green apples, pears" Score 6/10

No faults were listed. Overall score was 30 from both. I'm trying to put a handle on what to do in the future.

 

[mwilcox]

FAJC tastes too cooked for my preference, and its tendency for a one-note nature could have covered some of the more interesting and subtle character the apples may have displayed.

without specifics on the phenolics one judge might have detected (I'm not giving them the benefit of the doubt, as they used the word "or") I can't really guess what they're referring to. Excessive green apple candy can definitely be off-putting, as could excessive recent malic with the sort of metallic harshness it has. it's tough to say, sorry.

I'd also consider the strong possibility that you know more about cider than them. Cider judging is extremely hit and miss in this country right now. I could review it if you want to send to the midwest. I have a 90 on the beta Cider Judge exam if that matters.

If people are looking for a certain character to be added by the yeast that's fine, but it's not what I'm trying to make with cider. I want my yeast to stay out of the way. And in a competition I am not going to particularly enjoy a "yeasty" cider and I haven't thus far enjoyed the ones with strong yeast components. it's a wine with apples, basically. Purity of fruit, without seeming raw/unfermented or cooked. (tricky; sometimes a more warm "baked apple" can be inviting whereas the one-note cooked FAJC is not IMO)

FWIW I like to backsweeten to a lower number for competition, and have some favorite aromatic juices saved for that ~4 gravity points or so. More than that I'll add a touch of ice cider but I have to be careful there too or it ends up tasting like brown sugar.

 

[Maylar]

FAJC tastes too cooked for my preference, and its tendency for a one-note nature could have covered some of the more interesting and subtle character the apples may have displayed.

without specifics on the phenolics one judge might have detected (I'm not giving them the benefit of the doubt, as they used the word "or") I can't really guess what they're referring to. Excessive green apple candy can definitely be off-putting, as could excessive recent malic with the sort of metallic harshness it has. it's tough to say, sorry.

I'd also consider the strong possibility that you know more about cider than them. Cider judging is extremely hit and miss in this country right now. I could review it if you want to send to the midwest. I have a 90 on the beta Cider Judge exam if that matters.

If people are looking for a certain character to be added by the yeast that's fine, but it's not what I'm trying to make with cider. I want my yeast to stay out of the way. And in a competition I am not going to particularly enjoy a "yeasty" cider and I haven't thus far enjoyed the ones with strong yeast components. it's a wine with apples, basically. Purity of fruit, without seeming raw/unfermented or cooked. (tricky; sometimes a more warm "baked apple" can be inviting whereas the one-note cooked FAJC is not IMO)

FWIW I like to backsweeten to a lower number for competition, and have some favorite aromatic juices saved for that ~4 gravity points or so. More than that I'll add a touch of ice cider but I have to be careful there too or it ends up tasting like brown sugar.

This is very encouraging, thank you. You've just confirmed my current thinking and helped me to focus on the next batch.

I have a line on some orchard cider pressed specifically for fermenting. I'm expecting more acid, tannins, and natural aroma from the apples. I'm also going to use a neutral yeast that neither adds or subtracts from the fruit. I'm going to keep the sweetness down, and make something like my own concentrate if needed. Thanks for that idea as well.

I hear ya on the judges, too. This was my first competition and I was looking for something other than, "This is really good!" that I get from friends and family. Unfortunately, I have no more of that batch or I'd be honored to have you taste it. Next year...

 

[dmtaylor]

I entered what I thought was a very nice cider in a local competition, and both judges noted very little apple aroma. I'm wondering what are the significant factors that affect that - is it just the apples? Or the yeast, or temperature? All of the above?

I'm not certain which factor is most important. However I'm sure fermenting cool is important (I like the upper 50s Fahrenheit), plus certain apples such as Cortland and McIntosh are more aromatic than many other apple varieties. Just to make sure my ciders kick butt, I do both.

And then of course, there's this, where I couldn't agree more:

I'd also consider the strong possibility that you know more about cider than them. Cider judging is extremely hit and miss in this country right now.

 

[madscientist451]

I'm trying to put a handle on what to do in the future.

Being in Connecticut, you can get all kinds of cider apples and pressed juice that isn't available to most other people. (You may have to travel a little bit or some may be closer than you think) If you can get a juice that will ferment out the way you want, that's the way to go. Otherwise, get your own apple grinding and pressing setup and start hunting for apples.
Playing with the different apples and finding out what each brings to your cider, will help you improve your product.