What are your contrarian/"unpopular" beer opinions?

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roadkizzle said:
I understand that the homebrewer LODO evangelists wax on and on about the affect of hot side aeration on the flavor of their beer coming out. The PDF linked on that page appeared to be nonsense marketing by homebrewers.

Yes many of the big professional brewing systems work to limit oxygen... BUT WHY do they.

I don't want a bunch of evangelists telling me that they do it for certain purposes. I want to know why the big professional brewers chose those technologies as they have come up. The PDF talks about how the low level of oxygen is desired by the breweries because it leads to more shelf stable beers. But the authors of the PDF are just putting forth their personal opinions when it comes to talking about the immediate results of LODO brewing.

That resource had terrible citing so there was no way of knowing what the small amount of resources were saying.

Until it can be proven to not just be confirmation bias or a placebo effect I will still say the reduced oxygen has more to do with long term stability making sure that the consumers get the beer the brewers are making than it does to produce the correct beer in the first place.
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I think most of the answers to your misunderstandings and strawmen are addressed both in the PDF and the linked thread. Anything else can be addressed, if you'd like, in that thread. Use of terms like "evangelists" isn't helping you.


More on-topic I will say that my unpopular opinion regarding beer is that I think unbalanced beers regardless of being towards hops, malt, or alternative flavors are not very good. I hate the majority of modern "imperial stouts" especially those in the vein of the Prairie Bomb! series. I find IPA's exceedingly boring. I love malty flavors as long as they actually are balanced with appropriate bitterness.
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This I agree with.
 
So far, the arguments against LoDO include conspiracy theories, calling for triangle tests, calling triangle tests biased, "...but I'm already making good beer!", non-LoDO has won awards, LoDO brewers are cultists or evangelists, low oxygen only matters for harsh environments and shelf life, ad hominem, strawmen, and so on. None of the strongly, yet strangely, opposed have done a shred of testing for themselves, or evidently bothered reading the entire documentation or following up with any of the sources of research.

On the contrary the other side provides sources of scientific study, the cause and effects of oxygen in all stages of brewing, methods used to achieve it on both large and small scale, testimonials, two triangle tests, and more.

But please, continue to tell us who's biased.

Seriously, either pursue the topic in the already in progress thread, try it yourself, or don't and move on. This is just ridiculous.

Link again, if you'd like to have a discussion. If you'd like to bounce your head against the wall in front of the peanut gallery, continue in this thread.
 
JediJoel said:
My contrarian beer opinion is that everything needs be aged in oak, including brewers. It helps the brewers mellow out and gives them a nice smokey, woody aroma. :D
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That would sure beat the aroma most of them currently have - either patchouli or unbathed. Or some combination of the two.
 
Yes Evangelism is strictly a religious word... But it has been co-opted in the business communities since the 90's starting with Apple. https://hbr.org/2015/05/the-art-of-evangelism

From the Cambridge Dictionary: Evangelize is defined simply as "to talk about how good you think something is". (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/evangelize)

If you don't think you are evangelizing LODO then you aren't reading what you're writing. I am not trying to play upon stereotypes of evangelists or anything... I am just trying to use the most accurate terminology I can.

The people you are trying to convert to LODO practitioners ARE calling for tests that even attempt to be non-biased. I have not performed any tests because LODO as has been put forth requires a significant investment... We are not going to perform the tests ourselves because we have yet to see that the investment is what produces better beer.

The people trying to convert everyone else to their practice should be the ones with the burden of proof to show why it matters... Not the people who you are trying to convert.

I think that all of the people talking up LODO but without a shred of attempt at non-biased examples is very suspect... And yes. I'm not going to wade through 146 pages of a thread for a topic that people still haven't shown actual results for why it matters.

The PDF and information is from the "German Brewing" blog. There are no credentials, or explanations on why they are a legitimate expert. You may as well be quoting links from "German Beer Institute"'s Horst Dornbusch. There are so many people who have discredited his work as purely unsubstantiated propoganda for the advancement of his own personal career, with little reality supporting his assertions.


Again. I don't think anyone is denying that oxygen has harmful effects on beer. I don't think anyone is saying that oxygen reduction is a bad thing. But we are questioning the benefits of elimination hot side oxygen.
 
My contrarian opinion is that all arguments for and against lodo brewing should be relegated to one specific page and any time someone is caught losing their fng minds re lodo on a thread unrelated to lodo their comments should be immediately removed from said innocent thread and placed on the lodo page so people who give a $hit can read all about it ad nauseum and those of us who DON'T give a $hit can have our nice pleasant non lodo conversations unadulterated by this ridiculousness. I. Don't. F'ing. Care. About. Lodo...
 
HBT has become a war zone of the lodo discussion and sometimes the battles spread but it's been a great read, I just don't want this thread locked over that lodo crap

Disclaimer: i am reserving all judgement for or against lodo until i feel like I could perform it successfully which I don't believe i can at this time, thanks lol
 
TANSTAAFB said:
My contrarian opinion is that all arguments for and against lodo brewing should be relegated to one specific page and any time someone is caught losing their fng minds re lodo on a thread unrelated to lodo their comments should be immediately removed from said innocent thread and placed on the lodo page so people who give a $hit can read all about it ad nauseum and those of us who DON'T give a $hit can have our nice pleasant non lodo conversations unadulterated by this ridiculousness. I. Don't. F'ing. Care. About. Lodo...
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You are free to not agree or care about low oxygen, but quite frequently the topic of low oxygen techniques is introduced into a thread because it's related to the issues people are tryign to get help with. I've yet to see a thread where someone just dropped in and said anything low oxygen related without it being related to the thread topic.

Rhaop said:
HBT has become a war zone of the lodo discussion and sometimes the battles spread but it's been a great read, I just don't want this thread locked over that lodo crap

Disclaimer: i am reserving all judgement for or against lodo until i feel like I could perform it successfully which I don't believe i can at this time, thanks lol
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The thread won't get locked over a lively discussion about low oxygen brewing. That feature is reserved for discussions of illegal techniques and otherwise useless argumentative threads. Despite this being a contentious topic, I would argue that not only is it productive debate, but also it's in a good thread for it.

I think your disclaimer is quite fair. However, most around here just write low oxygen off as heresy without any understanding of it.
 
Not to prolong the Low O2 discussion on this thread unnecessarily, but I have been a skeptic (not hostile to the idea, but skeptical), because I am producing some damned fine German lagers these days, and up until now haven't felt the need for it. But, on the flipside, I am always tweaking my process to improve my beer, so why would I ignore one more potentially helpful tweak?

So, I've decided that the only reasonable thing to do in order to be able to participate in the discussion from a position of any validity is to give it an honest attempt and evaluate the results.

While I took issue with the PDF's tone of "you can't make a decent Helles without Low O2 methods" (which I think is complete nonsense), I saw that there may be some real merit to the concept, even if only to improve shelf stability (which is a real issue with NEIPAs). I also agree that some of the more ardent proponents of the process can be a little...overzealous? But hey, we all love beer, and if that's their thing, so be it.

The thing is, you really can't knock it until you try it. Anything else is speaking from a position of ignorance and speculation.

So, since I don't have a dog in this fight, and I will be fairly immune to confirmation bias because I really am neutral on the matter, I will be brewing a low O2 German Pils this weekend. I'll post the results in the Low O2 thread.

Bottom line: You really can't speak to whether it does or does not do anything unless you try it (and really attempt to do it well). And most likely it does do something, and it is up to each brewer to determine if what it does is worth the time and effort for the result. For some it will be yes, for some no. I think it was The Mad Fermentationist who tried it and decided it wasn't for him (though he admittedly didn't go to great lengths to follow the process's finer details). However, one guy's experience is hardly definitive. If you don't care to try it, that's fine, but don't argue against it from a position of ignorance/inexperience.

I want to be a part of the discussion, but I refuse to be speculative, so I am creating my own data point.
Cheers!:tank:
 
I am from NE Ohio and I do not like Christmas Ale. I also do not understand why some brew without taking notes, like how are you going to recreate that IPA again if you don't know what your mash temperature was or what music you were listening to.
 
Sillybilly said:
I am from NE Ohio and I do not like Christmas Ale. I also do not understand why some brew without taking notes, like how are you going to recreate that IPA again if you don't know what your mash temperature was or what music you were listening to.
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People brew without taking notes?
How?
 
I used to take meticulous notes, now I just brew. I use Beersmith and enter the actual vs projected measurements, might make a note in the recipe if something really off happened. But for the most part I know what I'm doing and I know what to expect from my process and my recipes.
 
Trying to help get this train back on the rails...gah, I can't stand anything bourbon barrel aged. And chili pepper/spicy beer is for the birds.
 
1) dark beers are great served very chilly
2) big beers are delicious fresh after carbonating.. Partially why aging is so hard for me to do!
3) hazy beers are superior to crystal clear beers
4) everyone either likes IPAs way too much, or hates IPAs too much. They have their place and are delicious, but aren't the pinnacle of beer
5) neither are sours, but I agree that brewing sours may be one of the hardest challenges
6) some cheap canned domestic lagers can be enjoyable - more than one specific offering, but certainly not all
7) opening bottles and pouring bottle conditioned beer is a significant part of the enjoyment I don't want to miss out on - I have no interest in kegging.
 
mainbutter said:
1) dark beers are great served very chilly
2) big beers are delicious fresh after carbonating.. Partially why aging is so hard for me to do!
3) hazy beers are superior to crystal clear beers
4) everyone either likes IPAs way too much, or hates IPAs too much. They have their place and are delicious, but aren't the pinnacle of beer
5) neither are sours, but I agree that brewing sours may be one of the hardest challenges
6) some cheap canned domestic lagers can be enjoyable - more than one specific offering, but certainly not all
7) opening bottles and pouring bottle conditioned beer is a significant part of the enjoyment I don't want to miss out on - I have no interest in kegging.
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#4: I'll second that!
#7: That's what I said too...until I started kegging. Bottling certainly has its place but it's awesome to pour your very own draft beer from a keg. :mug:
 
brinson44 said:
Trying to help get this train back on the rails...gah, I can't stand anything bourbon barrel aged. And chili pepper/spicy beer is for the birds.
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Totally agree. I love spicy foods and using hot ingredients in my cooking, but blow-your-face-off-hot peppers don't belong in beer. If I wanted to drink that, it'd put tabasco or my fav hot sauce in my beer (I'm sure it would taste great in some beers). I can't stress this enough for hoppy beers. Even just in food pairings, very spicy/hot foods clash with the bitters from the hops, so WHY would you combine the two?I've seen a few out there and it baffles me that people actually drink them. They make me gag.
 
ShareBrewing said:
Totally agree. I love spicy foods and using hot ingredients in my cooking, but blow-your-face-off-hot peppers don't belong in beer. If I wanted to drink that, it'd put tabasco or my fav hot sauce in my beer (I'm sure it would taste great in some beers). I can't stress this enough for hoppy beers. Even just in food pairings, very spicy/hot foods clash with the bitters from the hops, so WHY would you combine the two?I've seen a few out there and it baffles me that people actually drink them. They make me gag.
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Hmmmm...I agree that I don't like most spicy beers. Most places around CO & NM use a light lager base for their green chile beers and there's not enough substance to balance the chile flavors. BUT Santa Fe brewing came out with this https://santafebrewing.com/beer/adobe-igloo/
And it is pretty tasty! Nuanced flavors that work well together.

I disagree completely with spicy and IPA clashing if you mean a food/beer pairing as well. It sucks as a combo in the beer but I LOVE me some IPA with make you sweat, burn your lips hot wings or poppers or Mexican or just about anything spicy...Damn good with Thai!
 
I'd skip the bourbon because I don't really like bourbon mixed with anything but ice, but Coke/food is pretty much > any beer/food pairing
 
Pairing with spicy wings, Coke has the sugar to cut the capsaicin and phosphoric acid to cut the grease, and then the bourbon brings the earthy oak balance delivering thine buzz...if the gods had made any pairing better, they kept it for themselves.
 
This is probably not popular, but I really dislike stouts. Give me an "over-hopped" IPA any day!
 
Here's a kinda contrarian one amongst my friends. The beers I make are not that good. It's ok, I'm just beginning with this whole brewing thing, tell me what's wrong with it so I can improve it. I know you're being nice but I gotta know what to work on from many points of view.

Oh, and hefe's are terrible. Banana is not a flavor that should be used to describe a beer. American wheats are way better. And you know what, generally American beer is the best in the world. I live overseas so many people talk about Germany and Belgium as beer meccas, but there are more, and better, breweries in my hometown than any foreign country. They used to be better but not so much anymore.
 
I'm currently living in Europe and IMO the beer here is absolutely better then back home in the states it's also a lot less expensive. I can get a tap of Konig pils, Kostritzer schwarz, Franziskaner hefe, Affligem, Leffe etc in a restaurant for 2 euro and very respectable Portuguese (Sagres) or Spanish light lager (Estrella) for a euro or less.
Oh and the food here is better too!
 
True, some places in Rirope have good lagers. But selection ain't all that good, it's not so innovative over there. They do solid traditional beers but hands down we got the best variety. I would put my hometown area (Portland, Or) against any non U.S. city in the world all things considered. For example, I can't think of any good IPA's from Germany, world class ones.

I also live overseas, about 10$ a pint and hard to find a good place to drink unless I want Asahi Super Dry :)
 
Hate sours or anything else made with Brett yeast. I don't care how well made they are or what medals they won.
 
It really annoys me when a commercial bottle of beer or wine doesn't have the ABV (or price) listed. Why isn't it legally required to post that? You order a beer thinking it's a moderate strength of 4% or 5% and find out it's a big 10% beer. Isn't that dangerous to not tell people?

A recent brewery I visited had a nitro beer on the menu but said to ask the server for that day's beer. I asked and she said it was a really good pale beer that most people like so I tried it. Tasted smooth and was super drinkable. She forgot to say it was a 11% barleywine....
 
For homebrewers and others that can't measure IBU's, I think calculating IBU's for a recipe is silly. It's like calculating a pH reading or OG, you can estimate but if you aren't measuring it, why list it like it's a measurement? Why not just stick with AAU for your boiling hops, keep careful notes and just adjust based on your results?
Just seems too Rube Goldberg-like to me when you can just figure, OK I want 10-12 AAU for bittering this beer, do the calculations with the hops you're using and be done. Adding more additions late in the boil? Experience and good notes and knowing the beer style and what you want in the beer will tell you how to adjust the hop schedule.

There, I wrote it and you can pelt me with oxidized, rotten hops if you must.
 
Been brewing 5+ years and gone down many of the rabbit holes to improve my process but never saw any benefit to doing all grain as opposed to extract with steeped grains. I can still get the flavors and OG I want by selecting the right quantities of the right grains and using the extract instead of base grains. And I don't have to worry about all issues that could arise from improper mashing procedures/chemistry.

So far I've had no discussions with concrete enough arguments to convince me it's worth it. The Three most popular pro arguments to all grain I've heard and my associated rebuttals:
1) "it's cheaper"
-- I'm not doing this to save money, it's a hobby and I like it. Making a batch that yeilds $1/bottle vs $.50/bottle would be inconsequential.
2) "you can make it taste more specifically how you want it to."
--see paragraph above
3) "Its not THAT much more work"
--but it is more work! With more risks!

Someone tell me how uninformed I am and why I should start all-grain if I'm wrong or you disagree!
 
CrazyJoeDivola said:
Been brewing 5+ years and gone down many of the rabbit holes to improve my process but never saw any benefit to doing all grain as opposed to extract with steeped grains. I can still get the flavors and OG I want by selecting the right quantities of the right grains and using the extract instead of base grains. And I don't have to worry about all issues that could arise from improper mashing procedures/chemistry.



So far I've had no discussions with concrete enough arguments to convince me it's worth it. The Three most popular pro arguments to all grain I've heard and my associated rebuttals:

1) "it's cheaper"

-- I'm not doing this to save money, it's a hobby and I like it. Making a batch that yeilds $1/bottle vs $.50/bottle would be inconsequential.

2) "you can make it taste more specifically how you want it to."

--see paragraph above

3) "Its not THAT much more work"

--but it is more work! With more risks!



Someone tell me how uninformed I am and why I should start all-grain if I'm wrong or you disagree!
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I agree with most of that. I do find that extract tends to finish at a higher FG. More malty and sweet. That's usually ok, but if I wanted a really crisp, light beer, I would use grain.

But you forgot about the biggest benefit to all grain: bragging.
 
OK, here's what I think is a bit of a "contrarian" opinion: I have yet to taste a Pale Ale that I really liked (commercial or homebrewed). I really enjoy a crisp Blonde Ale or Lager, a malty Amber or Irish Red Ale, and a bitter and hoppy IPA, but I always find the Pale Ale kind of uninteresting, almost too "balanced".

Maybe it's because I haven't come across a good interpretation (it clearly is not as popular here in Quebec than in the US). But I was disappointed every time I tried one.
 

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