What are your contrarian/"unpopular" beer opinions?

[Tiber_Brew]

Do you need to brew LoDO to make good beer? Of course not.

Objectively, LoDO brewing will make a different beer. Subjectively, some might not notice it, or maybe won't prefer it, some might love it to the point of never turning back to non-LoDO.

What the evidence of LoDO science suggests is that it does work and it does make different beer. What it does not say is that you will for sure notice that difference, or that you will for sure love it. Only you can determine that.



Edit: for your reading pleasure, the infamous Low Oxygen Sensory Analysis including multiple triangle tests

 

[Wildcat_Brewing]

Well put Dan and brewbama, my thoughts exactly.

 

[MidAtlanticBrew]

Thanks for the link I don't have a horse in this race but ....... Nice triangle test 27 out of 30 with all 27 preferring LO ..... hmmmm suspiciously definative, I would think it would take a cup of urine against newly tapped Pilsner Urquell to get results that definative..... and the faster kicked keg experiement is nonsense. Bad science, and this is an outstanding example, doesn't help get people to recognize the low oxygen movement

Edit: for your reading pleasure, the infamous Low Oxygen Sensory Analysis including multiple triangle tests

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Before demonizing me in any of this, go back and note very carefully that in all of my "questioning the validity of statistics" related posts I was merely "generically" questioning the procedure used to achieve valid statistical meaningfulness (while providing examples of cases where the statistics have failed to be correct, not due to statistical mathematics failure, but due to any level of induced control or methods error). Not once in my posts did I even hint at denigrating the potential for success via LoDO. Any such association had to have been made only within the minds of the readers of my posts. The mind can do that to you.

And after all, this is the contrarian opinion thread, is it not? Amazing to find contrarian opinions being bashed on the contrarian opinions thread....

 

[JonM]

Contrarian opinion: I don't know or care what LODO is.

 

[nasty_rabbit]

http://www.logotv.com/about

This whole time I couldn't figure out how you you would complete a triangle test with this. Oh, wait a minute, never mind.

 

[Pyg]

Contrarian opinion: I don't know or care what LODO is.

I thought they were discussing LoboView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1488723582.111542.jpg
Then again, I typically only read every other word of long posts!

 

[roadkizzle]

On the point of big breweries investing millions of dollars into LODO setups. They also have a lot of problems they have to work past than homebrewers do.

When I finish fermenting a beer I can put it straight into a keg and keep in a kegerator at a consistent temperature until it is empty. Or if I bottle then I can control the storage until my friends and I have finished the entire batch.

Breweries though unless they are brewpubs are at the mercy of the distribution and retailers to get their beer to the end consumers. They have little to no control over how their product is treated between leaving the brewery to it being judged by customers. They also can't force people to buy it in narrow windows.
A homebrewer can be working on his beer the day it finishes fermentation but a commercial brewer can't get their beers to consumers for at minimum a week... It can be 1-3 months especially for imported beers. Big breweries must invest anything they can into prolonging the shelf stability of their beers while that is a minor concern for homebrewers... And zero concern for the majority of homebrewers.

I am also very suspect on the sensory analysis.. Was the person performing the test really trying to see whether there is a significant difference or were they just trying to get a data point for LODO brewing.

In their page describing how you can tell oxidation they use an example of a malfunctioning pump introducing oxygen throughout the entire mash. During the sensory analysis were they taking the steps to work to make the best non-LODO beer they could or were they using faulty equipment and taking shortcuts. For one thing they mentioned they used warmer fermentation temperatures in the non-LODO beers than the LODO one...

 

[Tiber_Brew]

When I finish fermenting a beer I can put it straight into a keg and keep in a kegerator at a consistent temperature until it is empty.

...

Big breweries must invest anything they can into prolonging the shelf stability of their beers while that is a minor concern for homebrewers... And zero concern for the majority of homebrewers.

You seem to have a slight misunderstanding of low oxygen brewing and its effects and purposes. In an effort to keep this thread on track, get your questions answered here.

 

[roadkizzle]

You seem to have a slight misunderstanding of low oxygen brewing and its effects and purposes. In an effort to keep this thread on track, get your questions answered here.

I understand that the homebrewer LODO evangelists wax on and on about the affect of hot side aeration on the flavor of their beer coming out. The PDF linked on that page appeared to be nonsense marketing by homebrewers.

Yes many of the big professional brewing systems work to limit oxygen... BUT WHY do they.

I don't want a bunch of evangelists telling me that they do it for certain purposes. I want to know why the big professional brewers chose those technologies as they have come up. The PDF talks about how the low level of oxygen is desired by the breweries because it leads to more shelf stable beers. But the authors of the PDF are just putting forth their personal opinions when it comes to talking about the immediate results of LODO brewing.

That resource had terrible citing so there was no way of knowing what the small amount of resources were saying.

Until it can be proven to not just be confirmation bias or a placebo effect I will still say the reduced oxygen has more to do with long term stability making sure that the consumers get the beer the brewers are making than it does to produce the correct beer in the first place.


More on-topic I will say that my unpopular opinion regarding beer is that I think unbalanced beers regardless of being towards hops, malt, or alternative flavors are not very good. I hate the majority of modern "imperial stouts" especially those in the vein of the Prairie Bomb! series. I find IPA's exceedingly boring. I love malty flavors as long as they actually are balanced with appropriate bitterness.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

I understand that the homebrewer LODO evangelists wax on and on about the affect of hot side aeration on the flavor of their beer coming out. The PDF linked on that page appeared to be nonsense marketing by homebrewers.

Yes many of the big professional brewing systems work to limit oxygen... BUT WHY do they.

I don't want a bunch of evangelists telling me that they do it for certain purposes. I want to know why the big professional brewers chose those technologies as they have come up. The PDF talks about how the low level of oxygen is desired by the breweries because it leads to more shelf stable beers. But the authors of the PDF are just putting forth their personal opinions when it comes to talking about the immediate results of LODO brewing.

That resource had terrible citing so there was no way of knowing what the small amount of resources were saying.

Until it can be proven to not just be confirmation bias or a placebo effect I will still say the reduced oxygen has more to do with long term stability making sure that the consumers get the beer the brewers are making than it does to produce the correct beer in the first place.

I think most of the answers to your misunderstandings and strawmen are addressed both in the PDF and the linked thread. Anything else can be addressed, if you'd like, in that thread. Use of terms like "evangelists" isn't helping you.

More on-topic I will say that my unpopular opinion regarding beer is that I think unbalanced beers regardless of being towards hops, malt, or alternative flavors are not very good. I hate the majority of modern "imperial stouts" especially those in the vein of the Prairie Bomb! series. I find IPA's exceedingly boring. I love malty flavors as long as they actually are balanced with appropriate bitterness.

This I agree with.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

So far, the arguments against LoDO include conspiracy theories, calling for triangle tests, calling triangle tests biased, "...but I'm already making good beer!", non-LoDO has won awards, LoDO brewers are cultists or evangelists, low oxygen only matters for harsh environments and shelf life, ad hominem, strawmen, and so on. None of the strongly, yet strangely, opposed have done a shred of testing for themselves, or evidently bothered reading the entire documentation or following up with any of the sources of research.

On the contrary the other side provides sources of scientific study, the cause and effects of oxygen in all stages of brewing, methods used to achieve it on both large and small scale, testimonials, two triangle tests, and more.

But please, continue to tell us who's biased.

Seriously, either pursue the topic in the already in progress thread, try it yourself, or don't and move on. This is just ridiculous.

Link again, if you'd like to have a discussion. If you'd like to bounce your head against the wall in front of the peanut gallery, continue in this thread.

 

[jrgtr42]

My contrarian beer opinion is that everything needs be aged in oak, including brewers. It helps the brewers mellow out and gives them a nice smokey, woody aroma.

That would sure beat the aroma most of them currently have - either patchouli or unbathed. Or some combination of the two.

 

[roadkizzle]

Yes Evangelism is strictly a religious word... But it has been co-opted in the business communities since the 90's starting with Apple. https://hbr.org/2015/05/the-art-of-evangelism

From the Cambridge Dictionary: Evangelize is defined simply as "to talk about how good you think something is". (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/evangelize)

If you don't think you are evangelizing LODO then you aren't reading what you're writing. I am not trying to play upon stereotypes of evangelists or anything... I am just trying to use the most accurate terminology I can.

The people you are trying to convert to LODO practitioners ARE calling for tests that even attempt to be non-biased. I have not performed any tests because LODO as has been put forth requires a significant investment... We are not going to perform the tests ourselves because we have yet to see that the investment is what produces better beer.

The people trying to convert everyone else to their practice should be the ones with the burden of proof to show why it matters... Not the people who you are trying to convert.

I think that all of the people talking up LODO but without a shred of attempt at non-biased examples is very suspect... And yes. I'm not going to wade through 146 pages of a thread for a topic that people still haven't shown actual results for why it matters.

The PDF and information is from the "German Brewing" blog. There are no credentials, or explanations on why they are a legitimate expert. You may as well be quoting links from "German Beer Institute"'s Horst Dornbusch. There are so many people who have discredited his work as purely unsubstantiated propoganda for the advancement of his own personal career, with little reality supporting his assertions.


Again. I don't think anyone is denying that oxygen has harmful effects on beer. I don't think anyone is saying that oxygen reduction is a bad thing. But we are questioning the benefits of elimination hot side oxygen.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Yeah, I think we're done here.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

My contrarian opinion is that all arguments for and against lodo brewing should be relegated to one specific page and any time someone is caught losing their fng minds re lodo on a thread unrelated to lodo their comments should be immediately removed from said innocent thread and placed on the lodo page so people who give a $hit can read all about it ad nauseum and those of us who DON'T give a $hit can have our nice pleasant non lodo conversations unadulterated by this ridiculousness. I. Don't. F'ing. Care. About. Lodo...

 

[Rhaop]

HBT has become a war zone of the lodo discussion and sometimes the battles spread but it's been a great read, I just don't want this thread locked over that lodo crap

Disclaimer: i am reserving all judgement for or against lodo until i feel like I could perform it successfully which I don't believe i can at this time, thanks lol

 

[schematix]

My contrarian opinion is that all arguments for and against lodo brewing should be relegated to one specific page and any time someone is caught losing their fng minds re lodo on a thread unrelated to lodo their comments should be immediately removed from said innocent thread and placed on the lodo page so people who give a $hit can read all about it ad nauseum and those of us who DON'T give a $hit can have our nice pleasant non lodo conversations unadulterated by this ridiculousness. I. Don't. F'ing. Care. About. Lodo...

You are free to not agree or care about low oxygen, but quite frequently the topic of low oxygen techniques is introduced into a thread because it's related to the issues people are tryign to get help with. I've yet to see a thread where someone just dropped in and said anything low oxygen related without it being related to the thread topic.

HBT has become a war zone of the lodo discussion and sometimes the battles spread but it's been a great read, I just don't want this thread locked over that lodo crap

Disclaimer: i am reserving all judgement for or against lodo until i feel like I could perform it successfully which I don't believe i can at this time, thanks lol

The thread won't get locked over a lively discussion about low oxygen brewing. That feature is reserved for discussions of illegal techniques and otherwise useless argumentative threads. Despite this being a contentious topic, I would argue that not only is it productive debate, but also it's in a good thread for it.

I think your disclaimer is quite fair. However, most around here just write low oxygen off as heresy without any understanding of it.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Not to prolong the Low O2 discussion on this thread unnecessarily, but I have been a skeptic (not hostile to the idea, but skeptical), because I am producing some damned fine German lagers these days, and up until now haven't felt the need for it. But, on the flipside, I am always tweaking my process to improve my beer, so why would I ignore one more potentially helpful tweak?

So, I've decided that the only reasonable thing to do in order to be able to participate in the discussion from a position of any validity is to give it an honest attempt and evaluate the results.

While I took issue with the PDF's tone of "you can't make a decent Helles without Low O2 methods" (which I think is complete nonsense), I saw that there may be some real merit to the concept, even if only to improve shelf stability (which is a real issue with NEIPAs). I also agree that some of the more ardent proponents of the process can be a little...overzealous? But hey, we all love beer, and if that's their thing, so be it.

The thing is, you really can't knock it until you try it. Anything else is speaking from a position of ignorance and speculation.

So, since I don't have a dog in this fight, and I will be fairly immune to confirmation bias because I really am neutral on the matter, I will be brewing a low O2 German Pils this weekend. I'll post the results in the Low O2 thread.

Bottom line: You really can't speak to whether it does or does not do anything unless you try it (and really attempt to do it well). And most likely it does do something, and it is up to each brewer to determine if what it does is worth the time and effort for the result. For some it will be yes, for some no. I think it was The Mad Fermentationist who tried it and decided it wasn't for him (though he admittedly didn't go to great lengths to follow the process's finer details). However, one guy's experience is hardly definitive. If you don't care to try it, that's fine, but don't argue against it from a position of ignorance/inexperience.

I want to be a part of the discussion, but I refuse to be speculative, so I am creating my own data point.
Cheers!

 

[Sillybilly]

I am from NE Ohio and I do not like Christmas Ale. I also do not understand why some brew without taking notes, like how are you going to recreate that IPA again if you don't know what your mash temperature was or what music you were listening to.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I am from NE Ohio and I do not like Christmas Ale. I also do not understand why some brew without taking notes, like how are you going to recreate that IPA again if you don't know what your mash temperature was or what music you were listening to.

People brew without taking notes?
How?

 

[TANSTAAFB]

I used to take meticulous notes, now I just brew. I use Beersmith and enter the actual vs projected measurements, might make a note in the recipe if something really off happened. But for the most part I know what I'm doing and I know what to expect from my process and my recipes.

 

[MagicRat]

I know it's become trendy to hate it, but I love me a pound of Caramel 60 in an APA.

 

[brinson44]

Trying to help get this train back on the rails...gah, I can't stand anything bourbon barrel aged. And chili pepper/spicy beer is for the birds.

 

[mainbutter]

1) dark beers are great served very chilly
2) big beers are delicious fresh after carbonating.. Partially why aging is so hard for me to do!
3) hazy beers are superior to crystal clear beers
4) everyone either likes IPAs way too much, or hates IPAs too much. They have their place and are delicious, but aren't the pinnacle of beer
5) neither are sours, but I agree that brewing sours may be one of the hardest challenges
6) some cheap canned domestic lagers can be enjoyable - more than one specific offering, but certainly not all
7) opening bottles and pouring bottle conditioned beer is a significant part of the enjoyment I don't want to miss out on - I have no interest in kegging.

 

[Gerry_P]

1) dark beers are great served very chilly
2) big beers are delicious fresh after carbonating.. Partially why aging is so hard for me to do!
3) hazy beers are superior to crystal clear beers
4) everyone either likes IPAs way too much, or hates IPAs too much. They have their place and are delicious, but aren't the pinnacle of beer
5) neither are sours, but I agree that brewing sours may be one of the hardest challenges
6) some cheap canned domestic lagers can be enjoyable - more than one specific offering, but certainly not all
7) opening bottles and pouring bottle conditioned beer is a significant part of the enjoyment I don't want to miss out on - I have no interest in kegging.

#4: I'll second that!
#7: That's what I said too...until I started kegging. Bottling certainly has its place but it's awesome to pour your very own draft beer from a keg.

 

[ShareBrewing]

Trying to help get this train back on the rails...gah, I can't stand anything bourbon barrel aged. And chili pepper/spicy beer is for the birds.

Totally agree. I love spicy foods and using hot ingredients in my cooking, but blow-your-face-off-hot peppers don't belong in beer. If I wanted to drink that, it'd put tabasco or my fav hot sauce in my beer (I'm sure it would taste great in some beers). I can't stress this enough for hoppy beers. Even just in food pairings, very spicy/hot foods clash with the bitters from the hops, so WHY would you combine the two?I've seen a few out there and it baffles me that people actually drink them. They make me gag.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Totally agree. I love spicy foods and using hot ingredients in my cooking, but blow-your-face-off-hot peppers don't belong in beer. If I wanted to drink that, it'd put tabasco or my fav hot sauce in my beer (I'm sure it would taste great in some beers). I can't stress this enough for hoppy beers. Even just in food pairings, very spicy/hot foods clash with the bitters from the hops, so WHY would you combine the two?I've seen a few out there and it baffles me that people actually drink them. They make me gag.

Hmmmm...I agree that I don't like most spicy beers. Most places around CO & NM use a light lager base for their green chile beers and there's not enough substance to balance the chile flavors. BUT Santa Fe brewing came out with this https://santafebrewing.com/beer/adobe-igloo/
And it is pretty tasty! Nuanced flavors that work well together.

I disagree completely with spicy and IPA clashing if you mean a food/beer pairing as well. It sucks as a combo in the beer but I LOVE me some IPA with make you sweat, burn your lips hot wings or poppers or Mexican or just about anything spicy...Damn good with Thai!

 

[Tiber_Brew]

this might be contrarian...

bourbon & coke > any beer when paired with really spicy buffalo wings

 

[--0o0o0--]

I'd skip the bourbon because I don't really like bourbon mixed with anything but ice, but Coke/food is pretty much > any beer/food pairing