Belgian Dark Strong Ale Westvleteren 12 Clone - Multiple Award Winner

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Just tasting mine for the first time in the keg since Sept last year. Not bad, still seems a little under carbed though. What are you guys running for c02 pressure? I around 30lbs and still not bubbly enough for my palette.

That doesn't seem right to me. Sure you don't have a keg leak? I don't run anymore then 9-11psi for any beer.
 
Just tasting mine for the first time in the keg since Sept last year. Not bad, still seems a little under carbed though. What are you guys running for c02 pressure? I around 30lbs and still not bubbly enough for my palette.
What temperature are you at? At 38F that would be like 4.3 volumes... which seems like more than enough to me!

Any chance your gauge is borked? How fast in the beer flowing from the tap? Should be pretty darn fast if its actually at 30psi.
 
Seems like my gauge is a little off, beer comes out very fast of picnic tap. Could pouring too fast causing half glass of foam knock out some of the carbonation? 9-11psi on my set up would yield under carbonated beer on any of my 5 kegs.
 
Seems like my gauge is a little off, beer comes out very fast of picnic tap. Could pouring too fast causing half glass of foam knock out some of the carbonation? 9-11psi on my set up would yield under carbonated beer on any of my 5 kegs.
Yeah that can knock down a lot of carbonation. I mimic nitro by aggressively pouring the first half pint of stout.

I'd set it to 12-15psi, release the extra pressure in the keg, and try gently pouring a beer to see how the carbonation is. Also of note that the first ~4-6oz (depending on line type and diameter) may be undercarbed as line beer sometimes seems to foam up more or just lose carbonation in general.
 
And yeah, I'd say 9-11psi would be undercarbed for belgians (and for me personally, a lot of styles) as that would only give you ~2.25 volumes at 38F.

Especially for first pours of the day where its generally a touch less carbonated due to foaming.
 
Hello all! Frustrating problem I need some help with.

This was my 2nd batch I've made, I made the Centennial Blonde first.

BOTH reached 1.002 FG, which neither is supposed to go that low. There's no off flavors or scents, and they taste and look fine, but are super low.

The equipment is used from a good friend, but he's never used Brett, and never had my issue. I use PBW and star san, and I even soaked everything in a strong bleach solution solution for an hour, then obviously rinsed and sanitized again before using.

For this recipe, I used the Saq version with additional adjuncts, did a large 3.2L starter, and oxygenated (boiled the stone and tubing), and mashed (on accident) a little lower at 147F.

My og was low at 1.074 but not awful.

After 7 days of vigorous fermentation it sat at 1.013 and I racked to secondary. I had extra that didn't fit in my main fermenter, so I used a smaller 1gal carboy and racked half a gallon into there.

As an experiment I decided to bottle that half gal after 2 weeks when the main batch was dropping to 50F. I took the SG and it was 1.000

I'm almost certain I'm using the hydrometer correct, and the OG readings are correct.

What could be going wrong, or where would an infection (?) Come from. Both my beers did this with no bad smell or off flavors. Definitely taste dry though.
 
You say your friend didn't use any brett.
What yeast(s) did he use before you took over the equipment?
Any Diastaticus strains like Bell Saison for example?
Sorry, forgot to include that as well. He only ever made stouts, and IPAs, and he says he never used any weird strains... but he may not know that he used a diast. strain. He also says he's never had a beer go that low, but has had under attenuated beers before - like most people at some point.
Can you get/borrow a different hydrometer and check the gravity again?

I can find that. It reads 1.000 for distilled/RO water though, and it also read perfectly on target for the Blonde.
 
Sorry, forgot to include that as well. He only ever made stouts, and IPAs, and he says he never used any weird strains... but he may not know that he used a diast. strain. He also says he's never had a beer go that low, but has had under attenuated beers before - like most people at some point.


I can find that. It reads 1.000 for distilled/RO water though, and it also read perfectly on target for the Blonde.

What yeast did you use when your final gravity was 1.002?
 
I fought an issue like this after using Saison yeasts. But the mild bleach solutions solved the problems. Did you soak everything in the bleach solution or replace?(i.e. tubing, transfer valves, racking arm/siphon, starter flask, bottling bucket, etc.)
 
I fought an issue like this after using Saison yeasts. But the mild bleach solutions solved the problems. Did you soak everything in the bleach solution or replace?(i.e. tubing, transfer valves, racking arm/siphon, starter flask, bottling bucket, etc.)
I soaked everything, but didn't replace anything.
 
Using distilled, the lowest I can get the mash PH is 5.58 with a reasonable amount of salts. Has anyone used lactic acid with this recepie? I use it often with saisons, but I’m a little afraid it may add a tangy flavor here, which would not go well with a plummy, malty beer..
 
Using distilled, the lowest I can get the mash PH is 5.58 with a reasonable amount of salts. Has anyone used lactic acid with this recepie? I use it often with saisons, but I’m a little afraid it may add a tangy flavor here, which would not go well with a plummy, malty beer..
The tiny amount of lactic acid you would need to get down to 5.4 will not affect the flavor of the final beer.
 
Noticed the OP ages this at 50F after a couple of weeks. Wondering if that’s too cold?

I’m planning to let it sit in the primary for 3 weeks to clean up, then age in a keg with O2 purged out. I’m thinking more like “cellar” temp of 58-60, rather than 50F. What temp do you guys usually shoot for?
 
Noticed the OP ages this at 50F after a couple of weeks. Wondering if that’s too cold?

I’m planning to let it sit in the primary for 3 weeks to clean up, then age in a keg with O2 purged out. I’m thinking more like “cellar” temp of 58-60, rather than 50F. What temp do you guys usually shoot for?

The chemical reactions needed for aging, in my way of thinking would occur slower at colder temperatures. Or maybe that's just my justification for aging at room temperatures. 58-60 sounds more reasonable than 50, unless someone is aging beer for a long, long time.
 
I’m planning to let it sit in the primary for 3 weeks to clean up, then age in a keg with O2 purged out. I’m thinking more like “cellar” temp of 58-60, rather than 50F. What temp do you guys usually shoot for?

With Wyeast 3787, I start at 68 and get it up towards 85 within a week. If the gravity proves terminal by day 10 or 11, then I let it naturally drop to room temp and let it sit for a week or two. So by week three or four, I'll slowly bring it down to 50. Then it'll age at that temp for 8 weeks. After those 8 weeks, I'll let it work it's way back up to room temp, which is about a week. Then I'll bottle condition at room temp for 6 months minimum--it's actually really fascinating to try bottles over the course of the year because the beer really takes a journey. I think a year is the recommendation and I think that is when it has been around it's best for me--definitely around a year but I've had some good ones as early as 8 months.

The reason I do 50 is because that's what Westvleteren does, according to Brew Like a Monk. I understood it was to drop the yeast out from primary. St. Bernardus may do 45 degrees (and maybe a shorter time). But Rochefort 10 is 7 days for primary and 3 days at 46 and then bottles for 6 weeks and Westmalle Dubbel's secondary is six weeks at 46. Obviously different yeast is at play (Westmalle and Westvleteren are supposed to be the same yeast).
 
Anyone have suggestions for bottling from a Keg using a beer gun? Last time i tried bottling i got foam for days. I turned down co2 and froze bottles and still had half bottle of foam. Is there something I'm doing wrong?
 
Grist/Fermentables
----------------------------------
8.00 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Belgian (2.0 SRM)
7.00 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) Belgian (3.0 SRM)
2.50 lbs D-180 Candi Syrup (180.0 SRM)

Mash Steps
---------------
Mash at 149.0 F 90 min
Fly or batch sparge 168.0 F

Boil Steps
---------------
Boil 90 minutes
Add hops and Servomyces per schedule, (make sure to open the Servomyces cap).
Stir-in adjuncts at 10 minutes prior to flame-out, (alternatively, stir in adjuncts at flame-out)

Boil Ingredients
---------------------
1.00 oz Brewer's Gold [8.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min
1.00 oz Hallertau Mittelfrueh [5.00%] - Boil 30 minutes
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [4.10 %] - Boil 15.0 min
1.00 Items Servomyces - Boil 5.0 mins


Yeast Ingredients
----------------------------------
320 Billion cells or 3200 ml stir-plate starter seeded with 1.0 vial Abbey Ale (White Labs #WLP530)
***Krausen yeast method to be added here


Clear wort boil-down notes (Optional Step):
-------------------
(Optionally) perform a separate boil-down of 1.00 gallon of vorlaufed wort into a syrup using the following steps:
1. Extract 1.0 gallon of wort at the beginning of clear runoff into a 3-5 gallon pot.
2. Boil the wort down until it becomes a dark mahogany brown and is bubbling with large bubbles.
3. Be careful NOT to burn the maltose syrup.
4. The result will be approximately 24-26 ounces of syrup.
5. Re-crash the syrup by adding wort from the ongoing main boil.
6. Pour the dissolved liquid back in to the main boil.


Fermentation Pitch Notes:
---------------------
Chill wort to 63-64F
Oxygenate chilled wort to 8-10PPM by diffusing pure O2 via .05 micron diffuser for 90-120 seconds.
Pitch decanted yeast starter, adding chilled wort to the yeast flask to clear remaining yeast as necessary.
Ramp fermentation temp (evenly over time) from 63 - 80F over 7 days.


Fermentation Process Notes
---------------------
1/5/2012 - Primary Fermentation (7 days at 63F ending at 80.0 F)
1/23/2012 - Secondary Fermentation (3 -10 days at 78.0 F ending at 60.0 F)
1/26/2012 - Tertiary Fermentation (40 days at 50.0 F ending at 50.0 F)

Final Aged Ale
---------------------
In the end you should have a mohagany dark ale that is fragrant, malty, plummy, with a pillowy tan head and considerable Belgian lace. Like the pic below:

View attachment 233391


I apologize if someone has already asked this question, and it has been answered, but I couldn't find it in this thread. When do you add the candi syrup?
 
I apologize if someone has already asked this question, and it has been answered, but I couldn't find it in this thread. When do you add the candi syrup?

The OP, CSI, suggested adding the candi syrup 10 minutes before flameout. I usually add it right at flameout (the syrup should be sanitary enough).
 
The OP, CSI, suggested adding the candi syrup 10 minutes before flameout. I usually add it right at flameout (the syrup should be sanitary enough).

+1 on 10 minutes. Nothing wrong with flame out either, so long as you adjust for your fermenter volume.

I've also read of people distributing this out---some at the end of the boil and then some during primary so the yeast doesn't burn out.

I'm not sure if that's something Westvleteren does or not.
 
Anyone have suggestions for bottling from a Keg using a beer gun? Last time i tried bottling i got foam for days. I turned down co2 and froze bottles and still had half bottle of foam. Is there something I'm doing wrong?
I think this is not the right forum for this question but I'll offer my input since you already posted the Q.

Is the keg already cold?
You say you turned-down the CO2, what PSI are you pushing the keg with?
 
After several months, it's finally ready. Amazing! It over attenuated but still maintains some apparent sweetness and is delicious.

I followed saqs modified recipe.
 

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I think this is not the right forum for this question but I'll offer my input since you already posted the Q.

Is the keg already cold?
You say you turned-down the CO2, what PSI are you pushing the keg with?


It's the right forum as im trying to bottle my 1 year old Westy from the serving keg which is still in the keezer. I'm probably somewhere in the 5-10 psi range on the serving keg pressure when trying to bottle. Turned down the co2 pressure as in released from the keg so im not hitting the bottles with two much pressure. This style is somewhat carbonated so it has been way harder to bottle using the beer gun when compared to other beers. Im using cold bottles, cold beer gun and still get half a bottle of foam.

I have thought about releasing all of the c02 from the keg over time and trying to bottle condition using priming sugar or yeast method. I am just nervous if i do not get all of the co2 out i will create bottle bombs.
 
It's the right forum as im trying to bottle my 1 year old Westy from the serving keg which is still in the keezer. I'm probably somewhere in the 5-10 psi range on the serving keg pressure when trying to bottle. Turned down the co2 pressure as in released from the keg so im not hitting the bottles with two much pressure. This style is somewhat carbonated so it has been way harder to bottle using the beer gun when compared to other beers. Im using cold bottles, cold beer gun and still get half a bottle of foam.

I have thought about releasing all of the c02 from the keg over time and trying to bottle condition using priming sugar or yeast method. I am just nervous if i do not get all of the co2 out i will create bottle bombs.
I bought a piece for by bottle filler from NB called a "Foamless Finish". Link: Foamless Finish: Last Straw® Counterpressure Filler
It is basically a fancy stopper that fits around the filler tubes and seals to the top of the bottle.
This allows you to keep pressure (counter-pressure) on the beer in the bottle while filling.
Sounds great in theory, I haven't tried it yet though. Maybe in a couple weeks when I have a batch ready to bottle.

Hope you find a solution.
 
I bought a piece for by bottle filler from NB called a "Foamless Finish". Link: Foamless Finish: Last Straw® Counterpressure Filler
It is basically a fancy stopper that fits around the filler tubes and seals to the top of the bottle.
This allows you to keep pressure (counter-pressure) on the beer in the bottle while filling.
Sounds great in theory, I haven't tried it yet though. Maybe in a couple weeks when I have a batch ready to bottle.

Hope you find a solution.


Still looking to bottle about half a keg for aging. Any luck with using this Foamless finish?
 
I have the NB Bottle filler and have had mixed results.

Personally though, I always bottle condition Belgian Dark Strongs (and Dubbels)
 
Personally though, I always bottle condition Belgian Dark Strongs (and Dubbels)
I rarely bottle, but my Trappist style ales all get bottled and corked. Recently did a side-by-side 10 gallon batch, kegging 5 gallons for my neighbor and bottle conditioning my 5 gallons. I prefer the bottle conditioned batch from the early samples.
 
I agree as well, I have done a side by side in the past and the keg version just is not the same. I have had a keg in the keezer for two years and still just ok compared to previous bottle versions.
 
1.012 (!)

I was really apprehensive about making this beer. I've read through all 1474 posts on this thread at least twice. I've seen how many people had stuck fermentations over the years. I was worried that I'd stall somewhere around 1.032 and not be able to get it to go lower. But I stuck with the recipe (and a little instinct) and got to final gravity in 7 days. For those who are wondering whether to give this one a try, here are the key points of the instructions that I followed (and also where I deviated).

First of all, I slightly overshot my OG -- 1.095 vs 1.091. Turned out to be a non-issue.

I used WLP530. Three packs in a 4.5L starter (split between two flasks).

CSI says to pitch the yeast at high krausen (or better yet, pitch freshly harvested krausen). That wasn't going to work for me since I was going to be out of town for a few days between starting the starter and brewing. So I let it go for 5 or 6 days until it was done, refrigerated it, then decanted and pitched when my wort was at 63.

Brewing directions were followed pretty much exactly. Mash temp was 148 degrees. 2.5 bags of D-180 were added 10 minutes prior to flameout.

I brewed 5 gallons of wort. I split it evenly between three 3-gallon fermonsters so that I would have a lot of headspace. I've seen the photos of messy blowouts from this beer.

Wort was cooled then put into my fermentation chest freezer with inkbird set to 63. When temp was stable I aerated each fermenter for 5 minutes with an airstone (air, not pure O2), then pitched the yeast.

By the next day, there was activity (krausen and bubbles). Upped the temperature to 65.

(I have never smelled a more delicious and wonderful smell coming out of a fermenter than from this beer. Amazing)

The next two mornings I raised the temp 2 degrees each day, according to the recipe. But this is where I started worrying. I was now at 69 degrees. A sample showed me at 1.048 and the krausen and bubbling was already starting to slow down. All I had read in this thread said that you needed to get the temperature up into the high 70s/ low 80s in order to hit final gravity. I didn't think I was getting there fast enough. So in the afternoon I raised the temp to 71. In the evening I raised it to 73.

The next morning I raised it to 75. Sample showed me at 1.034. Better, but still worrying. Raised to 77 around noon, 79 in the afternoon, and 81 in the evening. (The recipe says not to go over 83. I decided to play it safe and max it at 81)

The next morning (5th day after pitching) it was down to 1.018. It looked like this was going to make it. The yeast really needed the higher temps.

Now, at the 6th day after pitching I'm at 1.013 and lowering the temp down to 60 degrees for 3 weeks. I'm not transferring to secondary, and I have no way of dumping yeast. I don't anticipate any issues as I usually leave beers in primary for 3-4 weeks. CSI says to expect the beer to go down the final gravity point during this time, so that should put me at 1.012.

Summary:
Key differences were that I used a completed starter that was crashed and decanted, rather than using fresh krausen -- and also that I aerated with regular air rather than O2. I was worried that I wouldn't get the full attenuation, but it turned out to be ok.

The combination of starting at a low temp and having fermenters just over 1/2 full meant that I never had krausen approach the top of the fermenters.

When I do this again, I will again start at 63 degrees but will ramp 3 or 4 degrees per day, depending on activity.

CSI says shoot for at least 84% apparent attenuation, with 86% as the goal. This was helpful since I started with a slightly higher OG. In my case, 1.012 is still 86.5% aa.

One thing I caught in all the posts is that a common factor in some of the stuck fermentations was from people reusing a yeast cake. CSI said a few times that this beer requires fresh yeast.

I can't think of anything else, other than that the hydrometer samples I pulled were delicious. This will be an amazing beer in a year.

Hope this helps,
Dan
 
I made a version of this in 2022 with 50% D-90 and 50% D-180. I prefer the flavor of the 50/50 to 100% D-180. However my 100% D-180 did better in competition. The 50/50 beer was judged as not to style for BDSA as it had too much chocolate flavor.
 
I've brewed this before, using the simple recipe, with great results. I have another batch ready for packaging in a few weeks.
Last time, I kegged and force carbonated 10 gallons. This time around, I'd like to keg 5 gallons and bottle 5 gallons. I'd like to naturally carbonate both.

This might be the only part I find confusing in this post. There is a lot of information on bottle conditioning.

Here is my plan, feel free to add your comments.

Priming Sugar
D-180 Candi Syrup
32 grams / gallon - 10 gallons, so 320 grams

Yeast
Lalvin EC-1118 Champagne Yeast
Amount - 1 sachet (5 grams)

I got the yeast dosing from response 21 which is a bit confusing when it comes to the Bottling/Kegging portion.

I did harvest the yeast cake when I dropped the trub, but I'm not sure how I'd measure to get the correct amount. I'd rather use the harvested WLP530, but measuring the dried yeast seems to be the easier way to go.

Thoughts/questions?

P.S. This post will turn 10 years old this coming year! Pretty cool. Great information.
 
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