Belgian Dark Strong Ale Westvleteren 12 Clone - Multiple Award Winner

[Kee]

I'm planning to brew this tomorrow. Does this really need an extended secondary for bulk aging? I was thinking of taking primary out to just under 4 weeks and then bottle for aging to save on a transfer and simplify the process. Thanks!

Aging in bottle works well for me. If there is any difference between the two methods it is very subtle (I've done it both ways but I only have one fermentation chamber so it's not really practical for me to do bulk aging at cool temperatures).

 

[meadowstream]

CSI, Good evening! Just saw you launched D-240 - how do you find it so far? What are the responses from brewers? What beers have you made with it where it really had made a noticeable difference? What is the difference between 180 and 240?

 

[UCChemE05]

Aging in bottle works well for me. If there is any difference between the two methods it is very subtle (I've done it both ways but I only have one fermentation chamber so it's not really practical for me to do bulk aging at cool temperatures).

Thanks for the feedback. As long as I get good attenuation, I hope to have it bottled in 3-4 weeks for the long wait.

I finished my brew yesterday; I tossed in the kraeusen from a smaller Belgian beer (1.068 OG) I brewed on Saturday which used a 3rd generation 3787. I was happy to wake up this morning to see good activity from the blowoff tube.

 

[Elkaybay]

Good day everyone,
After 2 months in the secondary, is it advised to add yeast together with the priming sugar before bottling?
I've never brewed a beer with such a high alcohol content and such a long secondary phase.
I've got some slants of 3787 ready in case repitching is needed.
Thanks for your help!

 

[user 141939]

Good day everyone,
After 2 months in the secondary, is it advised to add yeast together with the priming sugar before bottling?
I've never brewed a beer with such a high alcohol content and such a long secondary phase.
I've got some slants of 3787 ready in case repitching is needed.
Thanks for your help!

I think it is advised. At any rate I would add yeast.

 

[Kee]

Good day everyone,
After 2 months in the secondary, is it advised to add yeast together with the priming sugar before bottling?
I've never brewed a beer with such a high alcohol content and such a long secondary phase.
I've got some slants of 3787 ready in case repitching is needed.
Thanks for your help!

I always repitch now, after one batch that didn't carbonate after several months in the bottle. It's cheap insurance.

 

[stonebrewer]

You might be ok I would just be worried about fusel alcohol I on the other hand cant get this beer to ferment down with a slow ramp from mid 60's to the 80's over a week. keep us posted on the gravity I may try what you did next if it doesn't taste like hot alcohol i am pretty sensitive to it instant headache

Just got back from FLA vacation and filled a keg with 5 gallons of this and another with 2 gallons...I over did my sparge a bit and it cost me a few points of OG, but looks like all turned out well. I will secondary in the kegs and then set the freezer to 50 and try to forget what is in there for a month or so...

Ended up at 1.012-1.014, ~9.1 ABV and 7 gallons of (to be) finished beer. Had a small taster glass last night and detected no fusel alcohol, though there was definitely alcohol in the glass...a bit hot as expected with a "green" beer, though not unpleasant. Smell was fantastic! Lots of plum and raisin on the nose. Had a bit of yeast in suspension as well. I will post back tasting notes in May!

This was so good I had to open a bottle of Stickee Monkee to celebrate...delicious!

 

[jtp137]

Just got back from FLA vacation and filled a keg with 5 gallons of this and another with 2 gallons...I over did my sparge a bit and it cost me a few points of OG, but looks like all turned out well. I will secondary in the kegs and then set the freezer to 50 and try to forget what is in there for a month or so...



Ended up at 1.012-1.014, ~9.1 ABV and 7 gallons of (to be) finished beer. Had a small taster glass last night and detected no fusel alcohol, though there was definitely alcohol in the glass...a bit hot as expected with a "green" beer, though not unpleasant. Smell was fantastic! Lots of plum and raisin on the nose. Had a bit of yeast in suspension as well. I will post back tasting notes in May!



This was so good I had to open a bottle of Stickee Monkee to celebrate...delicious!

Thanks for the update think I will try this

 

[user 141939]

What does everyone do with the extra 0.5 pounds of candi syrup? I guess maybe I'll store it in a mason jar until I can figure out what to do with it.

 

[stonebrewer]

What does everyone do with the extra 0.5 pounds of candi syrup? I guess maybe I'll store it in a mason jar until I can figure out what to do with it.

I do not follow recipes that leave bits of stuff left over. I put all three pouches into the beer. The pouches do have a screw on, resealable top so you could probably store it the original container. Personally, I dumped it in the fermenter and never looked back...

 

[Elkaybay]

I always repitch now, after one batch that didn't carbonate after several months in the bottle. It's cheap insurance.

Thank you very much for sharing your experience. I'll repitch a bit of yeast when bottling.

Is it safe to use crown caps 33cl bottles this way (like for the original Westvleteren)?

 

[Kee]

Thank you very much for sharing your experience. I'll repitch a bit of yeast when bottling.

Is it safe to use crown caps 33cl bottles this way (like for the original Westvleteren)?

Are those standard size? I'm sure someone here knows. I use an assortment of Belgian bottles of that size from different brands and they all work well with standard caps.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Are those standard size? I'm sure someone here knows. I use an assortment of Belgian bottles of that size from different brands and they all work well with standard caps.

I used an assortment of bottles, but mostly Grolsch snap top bottles. They work very well, even after a year and a half.

 

[Kee]

I used an assortment of bottles, but mostly Grolsch snap top bottles. They work very well, even after a year and a half.

I usually use an assortment. Some small bottles I cap. Some pint flip top. Some 750 ml Belgian bottles that I cork. I think that it's personal preference. I feel more secure with corked bottles (Belgian corks) with wire cages, but all of the above will work.

 

[brew_darrymore]

I used an assortment of bottles, but mostly Grolsch snap top bottles

My choice of bottles as well, Grolsch swing tops. Easy to package and last a long time. Oldest batch is 1.5 years old and I still get gushers due to over-carbonation.

 

[Mocda]

I am well aware of the WY3787 and/or WLP530 recommended using with this brew, but as i stumbled upon this dry yeast called "SAFBREW BE-256" (earlier called Safbrew Abbaye as i understand it) I could not help but wondering if any of you fine people out there has tried this yeast with this brew?
Just thinking that dry yeast is alot easier to work with, but not convinced, so wanted to check with you experienced guys for input.

I am planning on doing this brew soon, so I do not want to ruin it with a "bad" yeast, so any input/experience will be most welcome.

Link for product spec: http://www.fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Safbrew-BE-256-en.pdf

 

[tellyho]

Can't imagine you could ruin this recipe. Always used 530 myself , but I would totally try the SAF yeast. You can always split a batch and try both.

 

[jtp137]

Can't imagine you could ruin this recipe. Always used 530 myself , but I would totally try the SAF yeast. You can always split a batch and try both.

Try it report back it would be nice to make an awesome dark strong with dry yeast next to bottling making yeast starters is my least favorite De Struise uses T-58 for panepot and it rocks

 

[Mocda]

See your points there. My problem is that I have no reference point regarding taste, so I will not know if this yeast produces some off-flavors of any kind.

First time I am going to try this and had to get the syrup from afar since there are no dealers of these products here in Norway. Would hate to ruin the brew, but would love to be able to use dry yeast though.

If I decide to try, it is still a year of lagering before we would know the result on how it tastes, right? Would make a long wait, but I am seriously considering it because of ease of use.

Would love to hear from anyone else if you have any more input on this matter😊

 

[Kee]

See your points there. My problem is that I have no reference point regarding taste, so I will not know if this yeast produces some off-flavors of any kind.

First time I am going to try this and had to get the syrup from afar since there are no dealers of these products here in Norway. Would hate to ruin the brew, but would love to be able to use dry yeast though.

If I decide to try, it is still a year of lagering before we would know the result on how it tastes, right? Would make a long wait, but I am seriously considering it because of ease of use.

Would love to hear from anyone else if you have any more input on this matter😊

I don't know the yeast you mentioned, but using other than the recommended yeast is a major departure from the recipe that could really impact the flavor. Exactly how that would work out, who knows?

As far as aging, CSI and others recommend a year (or more!) but you will have a terrific beer long before that. I always try at least a bottle every month or two to see how it's coming along. It does keep getting better and better.

 

[tellyho]

It's true. The yeast character really doesn't come through until after month 6 or so - flavor of the Candi syrup dominates.

 

[BrewerDon]

The recipe found in the first post of this thread says that the IBUs = 36.
My software comes up with a different number but that could be due to my settings.

I'm curious. Does this 36 IBUs calculation take into account that the syrup is added at the end of the boil. The choice to add syrup at the beginning versus the end will affect the final IBUs.

Thanks!

 

[cyanmonkey]

The recipe found in the first post of this thread says that the IBUs = 36.
My software comes up with a different number but that could be due to my settings.

I'm curious. Does this 36 IBUs calculation take into account that the syrup is added at the end of the boil. The choice to add syrup at the beginning versus the end will affect the final IBUs.

Thanks!

It could, but I'm guessing AA% variation is more at play than wort isomerization.

 

[BrewerDon]

It could, but I'm guessing AA% variation is more at play than wort isomerization.

No, it's not AA% variation. With my software, I entered the same AA% as the recipe on the first post with the O.G. set to 1.090 like in the recipe.

If the D-180 is added at the beginning of the boil I get 36.7 IBUs. If it is added at the end of the boil I get 40.6 IBUs.

If you are trying to clone a recipe and you know the IBUs of the recipe you are cloning I would think that you would want to take this into consideration.

4 IBUs is substantial enough be considered when formulating a recipe.

 

[cyanmonkey]

No, it's not AA% variation. With my software, I entered the same AA% as the recipe on the first post with the O.G. set to 1.090 like in the recipe.



If the D-180 is added at the beginning of the boil I get 36.7 IBUs. If it is added at the end of the boil I get 40.6 IBUs.



If you are trying to clone a recipe and you know the IBUs of the recipe you are cloning I would think that you would want to take this into consideration.



4 IBUs is substantial enough be considered when formulating a recipe.

Well then I suppose your answer is a difference of isomerization with a higher gravity wort.

 

[BrewerDon]

Well then I suppose your answer is a difference of isomerization with a higher gravity wort.

Yes, that has been my point all along.

But what I have been trying to get at is this:
Is the recipe shooting for 36 or 40 IBUs?
The description says 36 IBUs but based on the instructions (to dump the syrup at the end of the boil) it is actually yielding 40 IBUs.

 

[hobbybob]

Brewed a 11 gallon batch of this recipe yesterday ended up with 1092.
Now fermentation is going for the moon man I used 530 many times before but I never saw/heard this

 

[user 141939]

Yes, that has been my point all along.

But what I have been trying to get at is this:
Is the recipe shooting for 36 or 40 IBUs?
The description says 36 IBUs but based on the instructions (to dump the syrup at the end of the boil) it is actually yielding 40 IBUs.

I really wouldn't be worried myself over 4 IBUs. You have a huge beer that your going to age for a year, you're not going to notice the difference. Regardless if you go with the calculated 36 or the 40, you're not actually going to get that anyways. To many other factors like boil intensity and wort composition, etc. Not to mention, I don't know that the %AA on the bags are really that accurate anyways.

All that being said, I would guess that the recipe is set up to be 36 and that it has taken into account the post boil addition. Perhaps you have a different volume of pre boil wort that is causing the difference. Or perhaps you are using different formulas.

Personally I would shoot for the 36.

 

[hobbybob]

I went for 40 IBU, it's a strong beer so it can handle some IBU.
Added the candy-syrup at the end off the boil.

Fermentation is slowing down rapidly temp now is 77 F

 

[mbbransc]

There are a couple of factors that have affected our head retention in the past, (we corrected them early on):

Too much protease creation from stressed yeast or using a yeast cake as the pitch, (the most common cause).
Remedy: Use krausen with good counts for pitching in high ABV recipes.

High production of fusels due to fermentation temps above 84-85F
Remedy: Keep primary temps controlled at or around 80-81F in the Westy clone.

Other factors might be surfactants (soaps mentioned above), low protein grist, acidity problems (< pH 5.0), and mashing too low (below 144F).

Just my .02

This is coming back around on my brew calendar soon so I wanted to touch on this head issue again. I have the same problem with a dubbel I brewed (CSI's Rochefort 8 recipe) last year, even though it just took 3rd in a contest last weekend.

This time, I'd planned on brewing a 1.064 dubbel and using the yeast cake for the Westy XII recipe. Sounds like you think that's a bad idea?

I plan to pitch around 65° and not let it over 70° for the first day or two, and then let it go how ever high it wants. Sounds like I'll cap that at 80°.

I mashed this last time at 148°, and planned similarly this time.

I generally need to add 0.25# acid malt to my light mashes to get it down in the 5.3-5.4 pH range. <5.0 shouldn't be an option here with an all pils & pale mash.

Thanks CSI!