went to lhbs very negative about coopers

[gmaupin]

Well to let you know I haven't used any of there products but I see there are some recipes that do have there extract as the base well I was at a brew store and I saw that they did in fact stock some of the different types the gentleman who I spoke with had a VERY negative attitude twards this product why I figure what I choose to put in my beer is my choice rember brew for your self any one else have this reaction at your LHBS ?

 

[Revvy]

You might find this thread interesting,

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/bad-advice-i-got-lbhs-thread-141546/

But it is not uncommon for a lot of people to slam Cooper's and other "kit and Kilo" kits (including mr beer) they have a reputation (mostly by people who never even tried them, or who tried them on their first brew, but didn't have a good brewing PROCESS nailed down yet, and blamed the kit for their making bad beer.)

But for al the negative press, Cooper's is STILL the most successful beer kit manufacurer in the world. And one of the only few who that actually comes from a brewery, and is representative of their product line of bottled beers.

Like I said in my post in the thread I linked, just buy what you want and ignore the comments....

And then make the best damn beer you can, and be happy!

FYI, Here's a great article from Oz.Craftbrewer.com, on how to make the best beer with cooper's kits...It's from Australia, the home of coopers, and from the craftbrewer radio guys.

Improving Your Kit

 

[Orfy]

Can't comment on the product because I've never used it.

You don't know if it's a biased opinion from the LBHS guy.


Does he sell it?
If not then that may be the reason for the comments.
If he does then you have to ask why is he stocking it.

Did you ask for his opinion?

If it's a good price then best bet is Try it for your self.

 

[Yooper]

I made one Cooper's kit about 4-5 years ago. I would agree that it didn't come out at all like I had hoped and if I didn't know that I could make better beer with other products, or it had been my first try at homebrewing, I would have never brewed again.

That said, some people like the convenience of them, and like the resulting beer, too. Maybe that LHBS has had a similiar experience to mine. Even though quite a few people make those kits and are happy with them, I'd never recommmend one.

 

[gmaupin]

Well I commented that I had looked into buying a Coopers kit but went in sted with my brewers best equipment he then went on to slam the yeast shipping extract the fact that its prehopped etc.... I understand that most hbs cary there own extract but if I want to try this product as a new brewer should he give me positive advice and feed back like how to improve the product

 

[david_42]

Many people involved in homebrewing slam everything that doesn't fit in their process. For a store owner to pitch an attitude on kits is rather stupid. You have to start somewhere and the consistency of kits lets you develop good brewing habits. If you make the same kit twice and get different results, it's your process. Maybe he has so much business, he doesn't have time to waste on new customers.

 

[Yooper]

It's very hard to understand what you're trying to say. But I think you said he criticized their yeast and their prehopped extract?

Well, that's my criticism too. The yeast is under attenuative, and the extract is prehopped. That's fine if you're making a no-boil kit and adding corn sugar to it. Some people do that, and like the beer they make. It's easy, relatively cheap, and some people like the taste. I most certainly did not, though.

 

[gmaupin]

well im not sure if and when I will use coopers but like Isaid i have found recipes that call for a can of xcoopers x= fill in the blank. I was having my uncle who moved down under to check the lhbs in brisbin to see if he could get it cheaper but then my favorite LHBS (not the one we are talking about ) opened and I got my equipment from them and I have my first batch going should be bottling this week end so that is that

 

[Revvy]

well im not sure if and when I will use coopers but like Isaid i have found recipes that call for a can of xcoopers x= fill in the blank. I was having my uncle who moved down under to check the lhbs in brisbin to see if he could get it cheaper but then my favorite LHBS (not the one we are talking about ) opened and I got my equipment from them and I have my first batch going should be bottling this week end so that is that

I keep planning to play around with some Cooper's kits. Actually Big Kahuna and I were going to do something together for an uber post....brew up a coopers "as is" and another with the kit as a base but with our process, and maybe dme replacing the sugar...But he had to go and buy the damn newspaper and leave us.

I'd like to see some of the recipes that you are refferring to, the "xcoopers x= fill in the blank" recipes...I bet you they are some decent recipes which push beyond the limits of the typical beers made from using them "as is."

And really probably no different then in cooking/baking, where you take a kit food, like a can of soup or even a boxed cake, and turn it into something wonderful by adding eggs instead of simply the water it says on the box. Turning something basic into something great.

Coopers has been around for a long long time, especially in Australia, and being so, I betcha down under they are lightyears ahead of us in modding those kits and making great beers with a little tlc, and maybe some hops and steeping grains.

 

[remilard]

Sounds like the guy was criticizing cooper's and not the concept of kits at all (no home brew store owner in their right mind would criticize kits because I'm sure they are aware that most of us who don't use kits also buy a lot of stuff in bulk and often not from them).

I haven't used cooper's products, maybe they are great maybe they are horrible. Their marketing material is a little over the top and I am amused when people spit it back out verbatim online because it is kind of silly.

I do recall listening to one of the last Jamil show episodes (style show, not CYBI) on Australian Pale and Sparkling Ale (basically cooper's clones) and the Australian home brewer they had on as the style expert said that the cooper's yeast you buy is not the same yeast they use at the brewery and that you had to culture from a bottle if you wanted to clone the beer. I also think (hope?) that coopers isn't using a bunch of dextrose in their actual beer. So anyway, good or bad, these cooper's kits aren't faithful reproductions of cooper's beer (and that they are is the primary focus of the silly marketing material).

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I have never had a good beer from a kit. I have had many. They are passable and fine, but definitely produce "homebrewed" beer in the derogatory sense. You will not produce a high quality product using these kits in my experience. I could be proven wrong, like anything, and people have different tastes, but in the world of craft beer, these will produce a bottom shelf, clearance isle quality product.

 

[flyangler18]

gmaupin,

What store were you in - Mr. Steves off Columbia Ave and Centreville Road?

 

[Revvy]

I've said it before and I'll say it again...I'll dare ANY experienced brewer, to go revisit a kit, any kit, including a mr beer one, and apply all the accumulated brewing wisdom and brewing process that they have done, since they started out brewing, and see if they don't turn out a decent, if not great beer with it.

Most of us brewed kits when we first started out brewing. When our process and knowledge base was very basic, and long before we heard of or had access to, or understood certain things, such as;

1) Doing full boils instead of dilluting with water
2) late extract additions
3) Better yeast, over pitching, starters/rehydration/ better yeast handling.
4) Better sanitization know how
5) Having a wort chiller instead of the kitchen sink cooling method/ rapid chilling.
6) Adding more hops, dry hopping adding aroma hops, etc,
7) Replacing sugar with more extract or using less sugar/simply understanding more of how ingredients interact with each other.
8) taking gravity readings
9) Not rushing the beer
10) fermentation temp control
11) Using steeping grains.

We know that each of those little things contribute to making great beer. I know in my experiences that half of those tips/tricks/tools I didn't know or have access to until I moved way beyond kits...For example I didn't do full boils til I got into all grain. And I was way beyond kits and into formulating my own extract with grains recipes before I got into late extract additiions, or even had a wort chiller, for instance.

So I really think that if y'all applied your knowledge/brewing process, since you last touched a kit, to any of these humble kits, you would be surprised at how good the beer would turn out. It still may not be your cup of tea, but I betcha it comes out 10 times better than when you first brewed one.

It kinda reminds me of this quote from Mark Twain....

“When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished by how much he'd learned in seven years.”

I betcha you'd think that the kits have improved since you last brewed them, when in fact it was you who did so.

 

[farmbrewernw]

Oh I don't know, I bet you could make good beer with those kits but it would probably require replacing the yeast and using a extract that isn't prehopped (do those exist?). If a recipe is asking for a can of Cooper's extract most likely you could use a bulk gold extract instead. I have been working in our brewery's homebrew shop part time and I think people just try to make brewing too hard, I'm not criticizing anyone but you don't have to follow the recipe to the T, I guarantee that if you where to post that recipe on here we would help you put it together with base ingredients avoiding the kits all together.

 

[broadbill]

Another thought on why Cooper's gets a bad rap for making less-than-stellar beer. It is made in Australia, put onto some sort of transportation (boat probably) where it spends a month at sea before it reaches the US...the kits are then distributed throughout the country to your LHBS. THEN, it sits on the shelf there for an indiscriminate amount of time until a new brewer buys it.

I've seen some cooper's kits at various LHBS that look like they have been there for a LONG time...the can having a nice, healthy layer of dust. You can't tell me that the coopers kit that we can buy in the US still is of the same quality as the coopers kits that are fresh from the brewery.

For this reason, the Australians probably really do have good luck with them....they are using coopers kits that haven't been at sea for a month and sitting around in various warehouses and back rooms of LHBS.

My take on it...

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I've said it before and I'll say it again...I'll dare ANY experienced brewer, to go revisit a kit, any kit, including a mr beer one, and apply all the accumulated brewing wisdom and brewing process that they have done, since they started out brewing, and see if they don't turn out a decent, if not great beer with it.

I just did (well about two months ago). I did a brewer's best kit with steeping grains to help out a friend. Like I said, it turned out fine but is definitely a "homebrewed" beer. I admit I am a definite beer critic. I don't just drink beer and say, "good" or "bad". I think many of us homebrewers are guilty of overbuilding our HB. I hold by that kits are at a disadvantage to producing great beer. Maybe it can be done, I have just never tasted one.

 

[Yooper]

I guess that takes me back to my complaint of these prehopped/add dextrose/use underattenuative kits. Sure, they are super easy. But if the OP bought it and brewed it, he very well might go back to that LHBS and say that it was bad. Or, the LHBS might never hear from him again and the new brewer could be convinced that homebrew is not a good way to make a fine craft beer. Bad kits give homebrewing a bad name.

I think the LHBS that is honest about the quality is doing a new brewer a favor.

Revvy, I hate to disagree with you but there really isn't a way for me to take my first Cooper's kit (with the recipe provided) and the Beer Machine 2000 (with the instant no-boil DME and prehopped) and make a good beer with those. Maybe not terrible, but nothing I would consider "good". I mean, I'm a decent brewer but not a magician. Sure, you can "doctor" it up, but how many new brewers have the foresight, knowledge, and experience to do that? It'd be like taking a can of campbells tomato soup and expecting coq au vin. Nothing terrible about the soup, but definitely NOT going to give you gourmet food.

 

[Mutilated1]

Its amazing how the LHBS will change their tune about Cooper's when they get a special on it and can make a buck selling it.

There is nothing at all wrong with Cooper's kits.

Be warey of advice you get from people who are selling you something.

 

[northernlad]

My first batch was a Coopers IPA. I took the advice of my LHBS and used more LME instead of sugar and followed the process in How to Brew. This produced a quite drinkable beer. Barely hoppy for an IPA and no aroma, but 100X better than BMC.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Be warey of advice you get from people who are selling you something.

Which is why the LHBS in question should be commended IMO. I believe they were trying to offer the best advice they could. I received similar advice when I started brewing and have never brewed a kit beer for myself as a result. I have a friend who continues to buy kits. He really doesn't care about beer at all and is fine with what he makes. But at the end of the day, I would never buy his beer or want to drink it.

 

[Mutilated1]

My first batch was a Coopers IPA. I took the advice of my LHBS and used more LME instead of sugar and followed the process in How to Brew. This produced a quite drinkable beer. Barely hoppy for an IPA and no aroma, but 100X better than BMC.

I've made that kit a few times.

One time I made it with two cans of Cooper's IPA and both packets of yeast and 3/4 ounce Amarillo in the secondary and it was as good as any All Grain IPA I've ever tried. As good as any IPA I've ever bought either for that matter -- just sort of a different color than you'd expect an IPA to be. But very tastey.

 

[gmaupin]

I would prefer not to say what store I was at do to the fact that this thread was not started to bash the stores reputation. It was started more to find out if alot of members who choose to buy coopers and such get a negative response when buying the product. Also it would makes things a little uneasy when I go there to buy things I saw that I liked

 

[Revvy]

I've made that kit a few times.

One time I made it with two cans of Cooper's IPA and both packets of yeast and 3/4 ounce Amarillo in the secondary and it was as good as any All Grain IPA I've ever tried. As good as any IPA I've ever bought either for that matter -- just sort of a different color than you'd expect an IPA to be. But very tastey.

See that's what I am talking about AND I think those are the types of recieps the OP is talking about as well...using the kit NOT as is, but as a base for tweaking.

But I still maintain that even something as simple as doing a full boil, and using a wort chiller will significantly improve even a basic kit....even that article from Craftbrewer radio says the same thing.

Esecially this part, you EACs...

Contrary to some snobby opinions, good beers can be made from kit beers. In fact many brewpubs make their beers form the sam malt extract that is used in the kits. But for the best results, kit beers need help.

 

[dontman]

I think one of the biggest challenges to making good extract beers is finding high quality fresh extract. Whenever I have seen Cooper's kits in the HBSs that I have entered they were very unappealing in their obvious age especially compared to the nitrogen sealed bag and/or extract dispensers.

I have no problem with the idea of going back and brewing up a recipe using extract and steeping grains. I know I can make good beer this way.

And Revvy says that to do so with the accumulated knowledge of better process I would make even better extract beers than I used to. I believe this. But, a major part of the better processes I learned over the years is that the quality of the extract and the quality of the hops and the quality of the yeast are of utmost importance to creating a fine beer.

One of my better processes I have learned is the process of only using the finest ingredients available and if high quality ingredients are not available to not even bother brewing. Call me stubborn, or biased, or discriminatory against Australia, whatever, but there is no way that I am going to believe that a can of prehopped extract that has spent months shipping 1/2 way around the world and then more time collecting dust (those cans always seem to be dusty) is of a quality that meets my standards.

The prehopped part alone would make me never use it. But it is the age of the extract that really puts me against the kits. Over the years of brewing extract kits I could always trace the quality of the finished product to the initial quality of the extract. That infamous extract "twang" is something I have always attributed to older extract, not process, because no step, such as late addition, could fully eliminate it from batches made with dusty cans.

Yeah, I'm going to have to agree with the HBS owner here and, if I were him, I would try to sway my customers to kits made from only the freshest ingredients. Mainly because I would feel like I was taking a bigger risk of losing a customer if I let them buy a product that would make a beer they didn't like.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Like I said. It may be possible. But you are up against odds I wouldn't want. Especially those canned kits. Produced who knows when, handled who knows how, and sitting on a shelf in the HBS for who knows how long. Maybe good beers can come from them, but I don't have the skill to do it, and I make pretty good beer otherwise.

 

[petep1980]

I use Cooper's alot. Especially their pre-hopped kits. I have had GREAT success with their English Bitter kit.

You lose a ton of control when using them though, you don't control the hops or the grain bill any (if at all). They make extremely good beer.

Make sure you check the date on bottom when you buy it. Old extract is bad extract. And make sure you add a flavoring hop. The kit itself will give you the bitterness backbone, but won't deliver any good hop flavor.

Easy 5.5 gallon Cooper's Kit Formula
3.75# Cooper's Pre-hopped kit
3# dry malt extract (whatever is appropriate)
1 oz flavoring hops
Your choice of yeast

You CANNOT go wrong.

 

[Mutilated1]

..and sitting on a shelf in the HBS for who knows how long..

the people that know how to read the date stamped on the bottom of the can know how long

 

[Revvy]

the people that know how to read the date stamped on the bottom of the can know how long

+1

And a little digging online (and on here iirc) you can find out the IBU's of the kit you are brewing, and with a little brewing knowlege, if you are tweaking a recipe with more extract or whatever, you can treat pre-hopped extract as another ingredient and tweak in fresh aroma and flavor hops as well.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Or you could just buy hops, bulk extract, whatever yeast you want, some grains for steeping. I just don't understand the desire to make a dung pile smell like roses. Drink and brew what you want, it just doesn't make sense to me when superior products exist (IMO).

 

[Msbeer]

Petep 1980

I like your recipe. I am going to brew a Real Ale and use the add pack from Austin Brewer with some steeping grains, Car-Plus and Special B about half of pound. I am going to split this between two Mr Beer kegs using Coopers and 05 yeast. I have one ounce of Saaz Hops that that will go in at the end of the boil.