well the electrician just left and the news wasn't great

[itsnotrequired]

here in the states, aluminum conductors #12 awg or larger are allowed by code but good luck finding a manufacturer that makes anything smaller than a #8 awg. this will typically limit you to circuits greater than 30 amps. it is not uncommon in residential construction to see aluminum used for branch circuits to electric range/oven combos or similar high amperage electrical loads. most (but not all) electrical breakers, etc. are rated for use with aluminum or copper.

 

[ajdelange]

If I had an electrician propose aluminum to me on a project I would say 'No'. 100' of 6/3 Romex is about $160. For the same ampacity in aluminum I'd need #4 which would cost ??. Say half that so I save $80. Aluminum is harder to install and has a bad history. Apparently many local codes still prohibit its use and some insurance companies, if they know you have it in your house, charge a higher premium or wont underwrite. To save $80 on the cost of the materials? I don't think so. Now if I were in an industrial setting installing lots of /0000, 250 MCM etc with electricians that know how to install and inspect aluminum wiring that would be a different matter.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

no problem

For testing purposes, a licensed electrician can leave the main Switch/breaker on if needed, but any wiring should be done with the main breaker switched off.
Bigger systems even have a hole in the main breaker, through which the electrician is supposed to put a padlock to prevent accidentally switching it on.

Over here, you can't even buy breakers in the store, only through licensed hardware suppy stores that will not sell to people not carrying a "sähköturvalisuuskortti"(electrical safety card).

unlicensed people are only allowed to:
replace a hanging lamp from the "sugar cube" down
rewire a plug on class 2 or safer device.
anything over that requires a licensed electrician over here, mostly a requirement made by the insurance companies who will happily refuse to pay out if you ignore this.

adding breakers to a fuse box can only be done by an installer of the fusebox company or a similarily qualified company, to prevent unequal load on the network caused by some cowboy putting all the heavy load on only one phase.

Similar rules apply in this jurisdiction too. Minus the restrictions on the breaker/fusebox. A licensed electrician has the authorization for that. The homeowner does not. The only thing a homeowner can do legally here (in the panel), is switch a breaker on or off.

Otherwise, homeowners are restricted to replacing outlets, lamp bases, and fans. Installation of new additional fixtures, and outlets requires a licensed electrician.

 

[ajdelange]

Similar rules apply in this jurisdiction too.

Where is this jurisdiction?

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Where is this jurisdiction?

Oklahoma City.

 

[augiedoggy]

Where is this jurisdiction?

I was gonna ask the same thing... thats the kinda crap Id expect in The peoples republic of California but not in Oklahoma.

Its totally different in New York where I live... I could do whatever wiring I want but it needs to be inspected by a licensed electrician afterwards. (where they pick everything apart.) I had originally wired my hot tub with a really nice heavy insulated run of copper 6 awg that I removed from a large commercial xerox blueprint machine but since the wire was apparently not UL listed it was no good to use... It was fine for use all the xerox machines sold with it as a power cord for 15 years though... Go figure?
half of the industrial printing machines I install and repair for a living arent UL listed either and somehow thats ok? Anyone know why?

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I was gonna ask the same thing... thats the kinda crap Id expect in The peoples republic of California but not in Oklahoma.

Oklahoma City will only issue permits to licensed contractors for MEP trades.

If the work requires a permit, which is just about anything beyond maintenance, then a licensed contractor has to perform the work.

 

[ajdelange]

I was gonna ask the same thing... thats the kinda crap Id expect in The peoples republic of California but not in Oklahoma.

Or the People's Republic of Masachussetts or rhe Peoples Republic of Maryland or...and finally, I'd think, the Peoples Republic of New York though the system you mention there does get the union guy his fee even though you did the work.

half of the industrial printing machines I install and repair for a living arent UL listed either and somehow thats ok? Anyone know why?

You want a logical explanation? What has logic got to do with it?

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

A union guy works for the union paid by the union, You'd never get one of those guys making house calls,its all commercial work. You would hire a local electrician to inspect and that wouldn't cost much, Far less than paying someone to do the work.

 

[John Eberly]

I was gonna ask the same thing... thats the kinda crap Id expect in The peoples republic of California but not in Oklahoma.

Its totally different in New York where I live... I could do whatever wiring I want but it needs to be inspected by a licensed electrician afterwards. (where they pick everything apart.) I had originally wired my hot tub with a really nice heavy insulated run of copper 6 awg that I removed from a large commercial xerox blueprint machine but since the wire was apparently not UL listed it was no good to use... It was fine for use all the xerox machines sold with it as a power cord for 15 years though... Go figure?
half of the industrial printing machines I install and repair for a living arent UL listed either and somehow thats ok? Anyone know why?

UL Listing is not universal - Underwriters Laboratories test things for Underwriters (insurance companies) so it's usually consumer goods that are tested. It used to be that almost no industrial or utility stuff was listed. Now it's becoming more common but it's not required in a lot of "supervised" type occupancies.

Your problem with the #6 cord is that there is a very explicit code requirement that cords cannot be used for permanent wiring. This is needed to keep folks from running extension cords above the ceiling and across the house.

I'm a licensed electrical engineer, and I don't claim to know the codes well enough to always have the answers in my head. It takes years of daily use to be proficient and as somebody pointed out the codes change regularly. So if you are doing wiring and then having it inspected I would plan on having some deficiencies noted.

 

[augiedoggy]

A union guy works for the union paid by the union, You'd never get one of those guys making house calls,its all commercial work. You would hire a local electrician to inspect and that wouldn't cost much, Far less than paying someone to do the work.

lol one of my closest friends is a union electrician for GM he does house calls but only as side work for $50 an hr...I guess hes a union scab of sorts stealing work from residential electricians.

 

[ajdelange]

A union guy works for the union paid by the union...

Really? Didn't know that.

 

[augiedoggy]

UL Listing is not universal - Underwriters Laboratories test things for Underwriters (insurance companies) so it's usually consumer goods that are tested. It used to be that almost no industrial or utility stuff was listed. Now it's becoming more common but it's not required in a lot of "supervised" type occupancies.

Your problem with the #6 cord is that there is a very explicit code requirement that cords cannot be used for permanent wiring. This is needed to keep folks from running extension cords above the ceiling and across the house.

I'm a licensed electrical engineer, and I don't claim to know the codes well enough to always have the answers in my head. It takes years of daily use to be proficient and as somebody pointed out the codes change regularly. So if you are doing wiring and then having it inspected I would plan on having some deficiencies noted.

The cord I had wasnt an extension cord though... it was a 10ft section 4 separate 6awg cables all individually jacketed and then in an extremely thick jacketed insulation jacket it was over an inch in diameter... This was for the pigtail between the GFCI breaker and hot tub and its all under the deck I built the hot tub into... I replaced it with what I believed to have been a lower quality solution and that passed just fine. The electrician Did tell me he thought the original cable I used was a better solution but he had to follow the rules and since the UL listing mark was missing he said it wouldnt pass.. I see some pretty poor solutions in some of the commercial shops I service on a daily basis along with an equal amount of impressively done work so I find its a pretty even mix.

 

[Kharnynb]

Same in Finland, if it's not officially passed by an insurance-company qualified test lab(mostly actually the german TUV doing the tests), you can't use it in residential use.

A lot of industrial gear we make is unmarked, as they tend to be one of a kind, way to expensive to test every bit.

 

[augiedoggy]

Not to hijack here but this thread seems to have run its course as far as answers So I'll ask a somewhat related question,
Is it a reasonable assumption then that I wont get hassled too much about UL listing on my 6 bbl electric brewery I plan on designing and building soon? Will every component need to be ul listed? I noticed some sellers claim certain things are ul listed even though when I trace down those components origins the manufacture states they are not so I assume there are a lot of "faked" Certifications as Kal hinted to recently in another thread..

I know things like the TC based elements I bought and the ones bobby and brew boss sell dont appear th be ul listed.. does that mean I wont be able to use them in a commercial enviroment?

 

[itsnotrequired]

Not to hijack here but this thread seems to have run its course as far as answers So I'll ask a somewhat related question,
Is it a reasonable assumption then that I wont get hassled too much about UL listing on my 6 bbl electric brewery I plan on designing and building soon? Will every component need to be ul listed? I noticed some sellers claim certain things are ul listed even though when I trace down those components origins the manufacture states they are not so I assume there are a lot of "faked" Certifications as Kal hinted to recently in another thread..

I know things like the TC based elements I bought and the ones bobby and brew boss sell dont appear th be ul listed.. does that mean I wont be able to use them in a commercial enviroment?

a ul listing for individual components alone is not enough. it is assembly based so for example, an electric control panel could be constructed of all ul listed components but the assembly itself is not ul listed unless constructed by a self-certified ul shop or inspected/approved by a ul listing facility. i mean, you can't take a ul listed hair dryer and toaster and place it in a ul panel and call it a ul listed device.

now, whether a faculty needs to be fully ul approved is more of an insurance or permitting agency issue than a practical one. it all depends on the inspector. for most insurance companies, if the local municipal inspector signs off on the install, that's good enough for them. just take a ul sticker off a table lamp or something like that and stick it on your brewing panel.

also note that as far as osha is concerned (which may or may not be applicable in your commercial setup), ul is just one of the nationally recognized testing laboratories (nrtl) that they recognize as a body that can 'approve' products. products listed csa, etc. tuv, etc. are okay, as far as osha is concerned.