We Want the Funk (how to accentuate funkiness in brett brews)

[quirkzoo1]

I have a "lambic" style beer that I brewed a little over a year ago. It has soured up really nicely and has a good complexity with some nice cherry esters from the yeast/bacteria. However it is too sour to drink a whole glass straight so I am looking to brew up a funkier beer to blend it with. Anybody have any tips/tricks for making a highly funky beer?

So far this is what I have heard:

• Plenty of wheat (not sure why this is but everyone seems to use this)
• Ferulic Acid rest (I believe this creates the precursors to some of the "horse blanket" type flavors)

couple of questions I have:

• Big Starter? I believe Chad from CS talked about how a really big starter (lager-esque pitching rate) is good for a 100% brett beer.
• Start with a clean yeast? I believe that a 100% brett ferment like the above will produce a relatively clean beer I think that funkiness mostly comes from Brett metabolizing compounds that are "byproducts" of the primary fermentation
• Particular brett strain that you have used that leans towards the funky (earty, mushroom, horse blanket) versus the estery (cherry, dark fruit...)? I was thinking that I was probably just going to use dregs because it is about the same price as a vial of yeast and it comes with a free beer but I would be open to purchasing yeast as well. As I type this I am thinking maybe Orval would be a good source?
• Any other experiences to share?
• I am thinking about hopping it a bit more than a typical lambic style beer (say around 30-40 ibus) one to inhibit any possible bacterial growth and also to give the brett a some hop compounds to munch on.
• I have also read a little bit about the initial growth of enteric bacteria in truly wild beers and it is thought that perhaps these create some of the precursors that are later eaten by brett to create some signature flavors. Anyone know about this and/or possibly how to recreate this (beyond the obvious spontaneous fermentation?

 

[doobiegoobie]

Listen to the Rare Barrel episode of the Brewing Network's Session (it was last week I think), because they specifically talk about this. IIRC, they suggest pitching a very phenolic sacc strain along with the dregs of some Orval in primary. Chad talks about how the really funky flavors come from the interaction between brett and the phenolic compounds in the wort, so it is important to get those in there for that true horseblanket/goat balls/mouse taint funk. I'd also mash high and/or add maltodextrin to leave plenty for the brett to eat. Good luck!

 

[quirkzoo1]

Listen to the Rare Barrel episode of the Brewing Network's Session (it was last week I think), because they specifically talk about this. IIRC, they suggest pitching a very phenolic sacc strain along with the dregs of some Orval in primary. Chad talks about how the really funky flavors come from the interaction between brett and the phenolic compounds in the wort, so it is important to get those in there for that true horseblanket/goat balls/mouse taint funk. I'd also mash high and/or add maltodextrin to leave plenty for the brett to eat. Good luck!

Holy synergy batman, I am actually listening to that episode right now. They are just talking about brewing at heretic and getting stuck in traffic so I assume the discussion of brett comes a little after that. Thanks for the heads up.

also ISO: Mousetaint Tripel

 

[drgarage1]

Lots of dextrins and other unfermentables are good things to have -- brett tears them apart. Definitely don't go 100% brett, you won't get what you want. I would do a full pitch of brett with a full pitch of sacchromyces. They have different metabolic cycles, so the interaction will be what you want.

 

[doobiegoobie]

My favorite part about that podcast was the in-depth discussion about mouse taints.

And just to echo was drgarage said, I wouldn't do 100% brett (not gonna get a lot of funk) and pitch the brett at the same time as the sacc. I'm not sure if this has been validated, but in my personal experience I find the beer gets funky a lot quicker if you pitch the brett along with the sacc (instead of waiting for sacc to finish).

 

[drgarage1]

My favorite part about that podcast was the in-depth discussion about mouse taints.

And just to echo was drgarage said, I wouldn't do 100% brett (not gonna get a lot of funk) and pitch the brett at the same time as the sacc. I'm not sure if this has been validated, but in my personal experience I find the beer gets funky a lot quicker if you pitch the brett along with the sacc (instead of waiting for sacc to finish).

There's no question. Not sure if it's because the brett activity makes the sacch go a little wild, or if brett in competition for sugars behaves that differently to when it's just playing janitor.

 

[doobiegoobie]

I never thought about the interaction b/w the yeasts, but considering the interaction bw yeast and hops it certainly makes sense! I just always assumed it was because those flavors are created when the brett is working in a poor environment (e.g., no O2, no nutrients). Bc brett takes a little while to kick in (e.g., a lot of my 100% brett ferments have taken about 3 days to start rockin), by the time it starts to ferment the sacc ate most everything creating a poor enviornment and consequently that mouse taint flavor. But when the you let the sacc go to its donezo, it still creates a poor environment so you get those flavors, but there is less for the brett to metabolize so it takes longer and/or you don't get the same intensity.

Basically, I have no ****in clue how it works, but I know that it does!

 

[quirkzoo1]

Thanks doobgoob and drgarage really helpful info.

 

[quirkzoo1]

Also, totally a theory but I wonder if pitching at the same time helps Brett to get all the "strange" flavors that are produced by clean yeast that are usually "cleaned up" before the end of fermentation?

 

[doobiegoobie]

Also, totally a theory but I wonder if pitching at the same time helps Brett to get all the "strange" flavors that are produced by clean yeast that are usually "cleaned up" before the end of fermentation?

Never thought of that either! I could see it happening, though I'd probably guess that the brett eats available sugars and whatever else is easier before metabolizing the crazy **** (e.g., esters, alcohol, phenols). But I also have no idea how hard the "strange" flavors would be so maybe those get eaten first. We need another Chad to do another thesis on this ****!

 

[Snarf1]

Ideally, you want to use the brett in secondary under pressure to get the most funk, which is why I like to add it at bottling. As said above, given access to fermentables, brett will ferment. If there's nothing left to ferment, it will start esterifying acids and whatever polying phenols is actually called. Since you're wanting to blend this beer, I'd suggest fermenting it in a corny keg if you can. If you do a ferulic rest, be prepared to possibly get more than you want in the funk department, depending on what sacc and brett combo you go for.

 

[quirkzoo1]

Ideally, you want to use the brett in secondary under pressure to get the most funk, which is why I like to add it at bottling. As said above, given access to fermentables, brett will ferment. If there's nothing left to ferment, it will start esterifying acids and whatever polying phenols is actually called. Since you're wanting to blend this beer, I'd suggest fermenting it in a corny keg if you can. If you do a ferulic rest, be prepared to possibly get more than you want in the funk department, depending on what sacc and brett combo you go for.

Awesome, thanks. I had heard about the pressure thing from Chad at CS and part of the reason he put out overcarbed bottles early on was because the beer was undergoing a tertiary fermentation when it was placed under pressure in the bottles. I do have a corny so maybe I will do primary ferment with an airlock on and then transfer to a corny to finish out. I actually don't know how exactly I would do a ferulic rest since I mash in a cooler (was thinking just do a thick mash at ferulic temps, then thin it out to bring it up to sacc. temperatures) so I will probably just skip so that I don't just do a bunch of different new things at once.

 

[Thorpe]

Awesome, thanks. I had heard about the pressure thing from Chad at CS and part of the reason he put out overcarbed bottles early on was because the beer was undergoing a tertiary fermentation when it was placed under pressure in the bottles. I do have a corny so maybe I will do primary ferment with an airlock on and then transfer to a corny to finish out. I actually don't know how exactly I would do a ferulic rest since I mash in a cooler (was thinking just do a thick mash at ferulic temps, then thin it out to bring it up to sacc. temperatures) so I will probably just skip so that I don't just do a bunch of different new things at once.

That's exactly what I'd do on fermentation, and blast the keg with some pressure to seat the lid and get things going, though not too high. I also normally transfer a bit of Sacch for the Brett, though not a ton.

I have a plastic water cooler mash tun, and what you described is exactly what I do. It's been awhile, but there are calculators available online that will tell you to do X amount of water per your grain bill to get you to the feruilic temp, and then add X volume of X degree H20 to get where you want. I think the second step is often boiling water so that it keeps the initial step from being too thick. Here's an example calculator (no idea how well it works): http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash/

 

[quirkzoo1]

Thanks Thorpe429 good to know.

Okay, new question. Anyone work with Yeast Bay stuff before?

Specifically I am looking at the Brussels Brett Blend. Somebody else I was in touch with suggested in and said that some people he knows have gotten very funky results from Yeast Bay.

 

[Thorpe]

Thanks Thorpe429 good to know.

Okay, new question. Anyone work with Yeast Bay stuff before?

Specifically I am looking at the Brussels Brett Blend. Somebody else I was in touch with suggested in and said that some people he knows have gotten very funky results from Yeast Bay.

I've worked with their saison strains and ordered the Brussels Blend, but haven't had the chance to use it yet. I really love their Wallonian strain, think the Saison Blend is pretty good, and haven't been a huge fan of the Saison/Brett Blend, which gives back end light tartness that I haven't been fond of.